Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[NobodyYouKnow]

Yeah, no. I'm talking about extreme situations like having a terminal illness, starving, being trafficked with no way out, etc. At that point, I can understand suicidal and wouldn't hold it against them. You're nowhere near that level of hopelessness.

If I knew there was an 'end in sight' I would be very happy.

I don't have a terminal illness, nor am I a starving child in Africa, nor do I live in a country ravaged by war...but this is exactly what I was talking about.

Why should I have to judge my 'happiness' fully and only according to the misery of others? as if what I am going through doesn't matter or is totally irrelevant? This is the biggest human 'cop out' of all time...may as well blame God or Karma if you're going to do that.

So, I am living in poverty, in a fibro and tin hovel, eating only once a day, I owe thousands of dollars to people and I'm being constantly hassled by lawyers and wolves, I have a criminal record (minor offenses) and I have a bad credit reference so I cannot get a job, I cannot get a loan, my family and friends all left me years ago and I have no family (only nitpicking, cruel and biatchy, elderly parents), I have a history of addiction and mental problems, I have Asperger's Disorder, Manic Depression and a whole host of personality disorders. I have fibromyalgia, post-herpetic neuralgia, osteo arthritis, gall bladder disease, TMJD and chronic resulting migraines...

If a doctor only gave me a few months to live, I would be overjoyed.

 

[Badran]

Well, of course there's always extreme exceptions to the rule. But if you're really at that point, you might as well kill yourself.

Actually i think what i was trying to say didn't come through properly. I think it's the other way around.

From between the circumstances we get born and grow up in and don't choose, to the endless possibilities of negative things that can happen to us at any point with little to nothing in some cases to be done, to our lack of complete and in some cases particularly needed understanding of things around us and the ways in which our own minds and bodies even operate (which reduces gradually the more you go back in history), i think we generally had, and though to a better degree now, still have no way near enough power to be in as much control as that statement suggests. To turn whatever circumstances we're in into any meaningful definition of the word heaven, even if in our minds.

Looking around me, i wouldn't describe most people's lives as either a heaven or a hell, rather something in between. A smaller, yet still significant number of people though get closer to those two descriptions.

All that said, this doesn't mean i think we should approach life as powerless. Rather just that statements like that quote tends to oversimplify it and sell people's struggle with life way too short.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If I knew there was an 'end in sight' I would be very happy.

I don't have a terminal illness, nor am I a starving child in Africa, nor do I live in a country ravaged by war...but this is exactly what I was talking about.

Why should I have to judge my 'happiness' fully and only according to the misery of others? as if what I am going through doesn't matter or is totally irrelevant? This is the biggest human 'cop out' of all time...may as well blame God or Karma if you're going to do that.

So, I am living in poverty, in a fibro and tin hovel, eating only once a day, I owe thousands of dollars to people and I'm being constantly hassled by lawyers and wolves, I have a criminal record (minor offenses) and I have a bad credit reference so I cannot get a job, I cannot get a loan, my family and friends all left me years ago and I have no family (only nitpicking, cruel and biatchy, elderly parents), I have a history of addiction and mental problems, I have Asperger's Disorder, Manic Depression and a whole host of personality disorders. I have fibromyalgia, post-herpetic neuralgia, osteo arthritis, gall bladder disease, TMJD and chronic resulting migraines...

If a doctor only gave me a few months to live, I would be overjoyed.

Well, if you want to look at things negatively, I won't stop you. You're the god of your subjective universe, imo. But it really sounds like instead of feeling down about yourself (which you do have a right to feel because that's a lot of stuff to deal with), you need to get into therapy and get a social worker to help you out. You need to look at your options. But this isn't the thread to discuss personal issues.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

But this isn't the thread to discuss personal issues.

I realise that. The whole of RF isn't and I have been directed to 'Survivor's Circle', but I cannot find it anywhere. As soon as I find it, I'll post all my negativity there.

People don't like to be reminded of all the bad stuff. They prefer to deny the existence of it - which is what I have to learn how to do now....all the wars, famine, natural disasters that people will tell me about, simply 'didn't happen'.

Ignorance being bliss and all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually i think what i was trying to say didn't come through properly. I think it's the other way around.

From between the circumstances we get born and grow up in and don't choose, to the endless possibilities of negative things that can happen to us at any point with little to nothing in some cases to be done, to our lack of complete and in some cases particularly needed understanding of things around us and the ways in which our own minds and bodies even operate (which reduces gradually the more you go back in history), i think we generally had, and though to a better degree now, still have no way near enough power to be in as much control as that statement suggests. To turn whatever circumstances we're in into any meaningful definition of the word heaven, even if in our minds.

Looking around me, i wouldn't describe most people's lives as either a heaven or a hell, rather something in between. A smaller, yet still significant number of people though get closer to those two descriptions.

All that said, this doesn't mean i think we should approach life as powerless. Rather just that statements like that quote tends to oversimplify it and sell people's struggle with life way too short.

I understand what you're saying, but I also think you're assuming a bit too much. I know how ****** up life can be and I know it very well. But you can either give up and kill yourself or you can try to keep going and change things for the better. So despite what you may think, life really is what you make of it. You can lose hope and fall into utter despair or you can keep trying. You really have those two choices in life. Overthinking such things leads to nihilism and thoughts that maybe humanity should be wiped out in order to save us from our collective existential crisis we're all currently in and always have been in.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I realise that. The whole of RF isn't and I have been directed to 'Survivor's Circle', but I cannot find it anywhere. As soon as I find it, I'll post all my negativity there.

People don't like to be reminded of all the bad stuff. They prefer to deny the existence of it - which is what I have to learn how to do now....all the wars, famine, natural disasters that people will tell me about, simply 'didn't happen'.

Ignorance being bliss and all.

Go to "User CP" and click on "Group Memberships" on the left.

 

[Penumbra]

I realise that. The whole of RF isn't and I have been directed to 'Survivor's Circle', but I cannot find it anywhere. As soon as I find it, I'll post all my negativity there.

The survivors circle is a private group, which is why you can't see it. It's so that posts are only seen by people in that group.

To access it (or any other group), you go to your User Control Panel, then click on "Group Memberships", then join the group(s) that are right for you. Those group subforums will then be available to you to see and post in.

 

[Penumbra]

Actually i think what i was trying to say didn't come through properly. I think it's the other way around.

From between the circumstances we get born and grow up in and don't choose, to the endless possibilities of negative things that can happen to us at any point with little to nothing in some cases to be done, to our lack of complete and in some cases particularly needed understanding of things around us and the ways in which our own minds and bodies even operate (which reduces gradually the more you go back in history), i think we generally had, and though to a better degree now, still have no way near enough power to be in as much control as that statement suggests. To turn whatever circumstances we're in into any meaningful definition of the word heaven, even if in our minds.

Looking around me, i wouldn't describe most people's lives as either a heaven or a hell, rather something in between. A smaller, yet still significant number of people though get closer to those two descriptions.

All that said, this doesn't mean i think we should approach life as powerless. Rather just that statements like that quote tends to oversimplify it and sell people's struggle with life way too short.

I agree, it tends to be presented in oversimplified terms. It ends up sounding like victim-blaming in some cases, where a person has all sorts of problems they're trying to deal with and someone says that life is however they make it and they can just automatically feel better about it if they choose to, and so forth.

I think it's good to try to empower people, to try to control the things that can be controlled, but it can be harmful to phrase it in terms of really blunt and universal ways where it's often just not accurate. Empowering people is tricky business that is probably best left to professionals or friends that understand someone's life well enough to actually take the time to really talk through it and listen to them and try to work out some options rather than going with the fairly simplistic statement that life is what people make it and they can just deal with it better and figure out a way through it.

If it can be put on a motivational poster, it's probably not worth telling someone, imo.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree, it tends to be presented in oversimplified terms. It ends up sounding like victim-blaming in some cases, where a person has all sorts of problems they're trying to deal with and someone says that life is however they make it and they can just automatically feel better about it if they choose to, and so forth.

I think it's good to try to empower people, to try to control the things that can be controlled, but it can be harmful to phrase it in terms of really blunt and universal ways where it's often just not accurate. Empowering people is tricky business that is probably best left to professionals or friends that understand someone's life well enough to actually take the time to really talk through it and listen to them and try to work out some options rather than going with the fairly simplistic statement that life is what people make it and they can just deal with it better and figure out a way through it.

If it can be put on a motivational poster, it's probably not worth telling someone, imo.

Well, this is a message board and we're not professional mental health experts providing therapy sessions to people. There's only so much you can say. I'm on antidepressants and am in therapy my damn self.

 

[Badran]

I understand what you're saying, but I also think you're assuming a bit too much. I know how ****** up life can be and I know it very well. But you can either give up and kill yourself or you can try to keep going and change things for the better. So despite what you may think, life really is what you make of it. You can lose hope and fall into utter despair or you can keep trying. You really have those two choices in life. Overthinking such things leads to nihilism and thoughts that maybe humanity should be wiped out in order to save us from our collective existential crisis we're all currently in and always have been in.

I can see where we kinda drift in two different ways. I can see merit in the approach you're trying to convey to me, especially since you understood my words were meant to be a reflection of my personal case, but let me clarify something.

I view the issue like this. There are two things. First, my recognition of reality, and second, how i'm gonna approach it. I can recognize things for what they seem to be, even if negatively, but still try to take a positive approach to everything if it's helpful, which i think is what you're trying to convey. But, naturally, the two things are not entirely separate, despite being two things rather than one, and so i felt it worth pointing out that basically, even though that's a nice thought, a nice approach to try to take to life, it could be worded still in such a way so that it doesn't entirely fail to recognize the overwhelming first aspect, which is the reality itself.

So, in recognition, i view us to have power over somethings, but not much. We're way overwhelmed by circumstances and conditions beyond our control. But, we can get lucky, we can increase our chances too, through all sorts of means, and it's best to think of that and as such i try to focus on that. My descriptions weren't meant to address my personal case, i'm actually pretty childishly hopeful despite of viewing life fairly negatively.

I was just trying to point out that approaching the matter as if both the above elements were entirely separate can be unhelpful and can actually crush people, in more than one way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can see where we kinda drift in two different ways. I can see merit in the approach you're trying to convey to me, especially since you understood my words were meant to be a reflection of my personal case, but let me clarify something.

I view the issue like this. There are two things. First, my recognition of reality, and second, how i'm gonna approach it. I can recognize things for what they seem to be, even if negatively, but still try to take a positive approach to everything if it's helpful, which i think is what you're trying to convey. But, naturally, the two things are not entirely separate, despite being two things rather than one, and so i felt it worth pointing out that basically, even though that's a nice thought, a nice approach to try to take to life, it could be worded still in such a way so that it doesn't entirely fail to recognize the overwhelming first aspect, which is the reality itself.

So, in recognition, i view us to have power over somethings, but not much. We're way overwhelmed by circumstances and conditions beyond our control. But, we can get lucky, we can increase our chances too, through all sorts of means, and it's best to think of that and as such i try to focus on that. My descriptions weren't meant to address my personal case, i'm actually pretty childishly hopeful despite of viewing life fairly negatively.

I was just trying to point out that approaching the matter as if both the above elements were entirely separate can be unhelpful and can actually crush people, in more than one way.

You should keep in mind that negative events in life tend to cause a sort of tunnel vision and keep you from thinking clearly. You have to step outside of yourself and try to view a situation objectively in order to weigh your options. Most people don't have it so bad that there's no hope left at all. But unless we know the specifics of a person's situation, all we can do is generalize and that's not really helpful. As I said to Penumbra, we are not therapists and social workers providing assistance to patients/clients. There's only so much we can do on a message board.

Now this is getting off-topic.

 

[Badran]

I agree, it tends to be presented in oversimplified terms. It ends up sounding like victim-blaming in some cases, where a person has all sorts of problems they're trying to deal with and someone says that life is however they make it and they can just automatically feel better about it if they choose to, and so forth.

I think it's good to try to empower people, to try to control the things that can be controlled, but it can be harmful to phrase it in terms of really blunt and universal ways where it's often just not accurate. Empowering people is tricky business that is probably best left to professionals or friends that understand someone's life well enough to actually take the time to really talk through it and listen to them and try to work out some options rather than going with the fairly simplistic statement that life is what people make it and they can just deal with it better and figure out a way through it.

If it can be put on a motivational poster, it's probably not worth telling someone, imo.

I wouldn't have posted if i had seen your superior explanation of what i was trying to say.

Well, this is a message board and we're not professional mental health experts providing therapy sessions to people. There's only so much you can say. I'm on antidepressants and am in therapy my damn self.

You should keep in mind that negative events in life tend to cause a sort of tunnel vision and keep you from thinking clearly. You have to step outside of yourself and try to view a situation objectively in order to weigh your options. Most people don't have it so bad that there's no hope left at all. But unless we know the specifics of a person's situation, all we can do is generalize and that's not really helpful. As I said to Penumbra, we are not therapists and social workers providing assistance to patients/clients. There's only so much we can do on a message board.

This isn't a criticism of your decision to post that, rather more of the quote itself and the particular mentality it represents. I can see why you would find motivation in that, that's cool, but i was addressing an unrealistic separation that i view as unhelpful.

Like i said, viewing life for what it is (or what it seems to be) doesn't necessitate taking a negative approach to it.

Now this is getting off-topic.

I think it's related in a way, though may be not enough or in a way the OP wants. So you might be right.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This isn't a criticism of your decision to post that, rather more of the quote itself and the particular mentality it represents. I can see why you would find motivation in that, that's cool, but i was addressing an unrealistic separation that i view as unhelpful.

Like i said, viewing life for what it is (or what it seems to be) doesn't necessitate taking a negative approach to it.

I don't think it's unrealistic. After all, it's about Satan choosing to make the best out of being thrown into Hell after being kicked out of Heaven. It's more about your patterns of thinking, your way of viewing things. If you think life is horrible and you won't get anywhere, then that is the reality that is most likely to manifest for you. But if you think that you can make things better, make plans and work towards putting them into action, then your life will be made better or at least there's a much higher chance of it being better.

But if you choose to be a defeatist about it, then you're your own worst enemy and it's your fault at least partially.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

But if you choose to be a defeatist about it, then you're your own worst enemy and it's your fault at least partially.

It all boils down to 'learned helplessness', my friend.

There's only so many times a dog can be zapped for trying to get out of that box, before the dog thinks 'why bother'?

I know, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again, but how many times must one keep on trying before they realise it's a waste of time? even with goals that are 'realistic'?

I guess what I need more than unshakable faith is unshakable hope.

They also say that 'hope springs eternal', however, and unfortunately, that well dried up ages ago and Pandora also let that cat out of the bag as well.

 

[Badran]

I don't think it's unrealistic. After all, it's about Satan choosing to make the best out of being thrown into Hell after being kicked out of Heaven. It's more about your patterns of thinking, your way of viewing things. If you think life is horrible and you won't get anywhere, then that is the reality that is most likely to manifest for you. But if you think that you can make things better, make plans and work towards putting them into action, then your life will be made better or at least there's a much higher chance of it being better.

Well, again, this is basically the lack of separation that i'm talking about. I don't have to view life badly and think that i won't get anywhere. Part of recognizing reality for what it seems to be is recognizing that some people do in fact get to great places. Ignoring that part of reality would not be what i'm talking about, but rather a particularly selective negative perception of reality, which is something you're continually reading into what i'm saying despite my repeated clarification that this is not what i'm saying, and that's in my view because you're trying to explain how a simplistic statement is in fact not so, so you sort of have to brush over the detail i'm pointing out.

Viewing life negatively (or positively) doesn't necessitate doing so simplistically.

But if you choose to be a defeatist about it, then you're your own worst enemy and it's your fault at least partially.

And this is what Penumbra pointed out in the beginning of her post. By neglecting a crucial element of the situation, and oversimplifying the issue, it begins to sound like blaming the victim, even if that's not the intent, and even if it's not always apparent.

You're saying 'choose to be a defeatist' and 'it's your fault at least partially', in some people's cases, and that is many people, these statements would be most unfair to describe their situations.

 

[Pegg]

No, they're just trying to bring the Bible more inline with reality as we know it and make their theology more sophisticated so that you don't have to claim absurdities in order to be a Christian. There is not one shred of evidence that there ever was a paradisiacal state on this planet. You are claiming such a thing as literal history, so you have to present some proof for that claim.

We also know that it is not possible that all of humanity descended from just one male and one female human. So there was no literal Adam and Eve.

all mankind alive today descended from 3 forefathes, shem, ham and japheth.

 

[Pegg]

We live in a world that all sorts of things happen, we label this as bad and that as good, but the thing is there is no such thing as bad or good, and as soon as we realize that we will be much happier, not blaming a god or whatever. We seem to blame everything everthing else these days but ourselves, we need to grow up and pull our finger out and take responsabelity.

agreed.

 

[Sees]

all mankind alive today descended from 3 forefathes, shem, ham and japheth.

 

[suzy smith]

My thread was specifically aimed at the Christian God because of the impossibility as I see it of marrying up a Loving God with the world we see around us.
But my motivation for the thread is the children.

Picture the scene, “Mummy why am I dying of cancer? Why does it hurt so much?”
Mummy, “Its O.K. darling, its just God testing us” or “we have messed up the world and you have to suffer and die for it” or “God is a loving God and he could cure you and bring you back home to mummy if he wanted to but you are not that important to him it seems”

I am I missing the point here?

[Any of you that promote a loving God care to get up off your butts, drive over to a hospital and visit the children’s cancer ward?]

 

[Pegg]

My thread was specifically aimed at the Christian God because of the impossibility as I see it of marrying up a Loving God with the world we see around us.
But my motivation for the thread is the children.

Picture the scene, “Mummy why am I dying of cancer? Why does it hurt so much?”
Mummy, “Its O.K. darling, its just God testing us” or “we have messed up the world and you have to suffer and die for it” or “God is a loving God and he could cure you and bring you back home to mummy if he wanted to but you are not that important to him it seems”

I am I missing the point here?

[Any of you that promote a loving God care to get up off your butts, drive over to a hospital and visit the children’s cancer ward?]

if you believed in God, would you be willing to turn to him and do what he asked of you if the result would be that no children would ever be in hospital suffering from any affliction?