Surely the world we live in proves there is no [loving] God.

[NobodyYouKnow]

Forget about disease and natural disaster. It's difficult to understand how a kind and loving god would allow so much greed and human beings to be so unkind towards each other.

I would love to live in a hippy commune, or on a Kibbutz, or even become a Hindu Quaker. lol

I'd just love to be in a community without any interaction with the 'outside world', who are self-sufficient and grow their own food, who still have a sense of moral decency...

I'd be fully prepared to give up TV, internet, make-up and jewelry, all 'mod cons' for just a bit of peace and quiet - so I don't feel like crying every time I watch the news (my heart is too soft - always has been).

It's got to the point where I cannot find anything 'good' in this world anymore and I have absolutely nothing to live for and no faith in the future of mankind whatsoever.

I've often asked 'what kind of loving God allows so much division of wealth? so much discrimination? so much persecution, so much corporate greed and capitalism'?

The answer is that God/Satan is showing us these things to show us how ugly and terrible the world really is, and if you are not part of the competitive, greedy, selfish majority, then 'turning to God is the only option left. It separates the wheat from the chaff.

If you see all these things happening, but choose to have faith, hope and worship God anyway, you have passed His 'test'. So, in a way, God really is 'testing us'.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Forget about disease and natural disaster. It's difficult to understand how a kind and loving god would allow so much greed and human beings to be so unkind towards each other.

I would love to live in a hippy commune, or on a Kibbutz, or even become a Hindu Quaker. lol

I'd just love to be in a community without any interaction with the 'outside world', who are self-sufficient and grow their own food, who still have a sense of moral decency...

I'd be fully prepared to give up TV, internet, make-up and jewelry, all 'mod cons' for just a bit of peace and quiet - so I don't feel like crying every time I watch the news (my heart is too soft - always has been).

It's got to the point where I cannot find anything 'good' in this world anymore and I have absolutely nothing to live for and no faith in the future of mankind whatsoever.

I've often asked 'what kind of loving God allows so much division of wealth? so much discrimination? so much persecution, so much corporate greed and capitalism'?

The answer is that God/Satan is showing us these things to show us how ugly and terrible the world really is, and if you are not part of the competitive, greedy, selfish majority, then 'turning to God is the only option left. It separates the wheat from the chaff.

If you see all these things happening, but choose to have faith, hope and worship God anyway, you have passed His 'test'. So, in a way, God really is 'testing us'.

So... God's a pretty messed up guy then, eh? He must've had a rough childhood.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Forget about disease and natural disaster. It's difficult to understand how a kind and loving god would allow so much greed and human beings to be so unkind towards each other.

I would love to live in a hippy commune, or on a Kibbutz, or even become a Hindu Quaker. lol

I'd just love to be in a community without any interaction with the 'outside world', who are self-sufficient and grow their own food, who still have a sense of moral decency...

I'd be fully prepared to give up TV, internet, make-up and jewelry, all 'mod cons' for just a bit of peace and quiet - so I don't feel like crying every time I watch the news (my heart is too soft - always has been).

It's got to the point where I cannot find anything 'good' in this world anymore and I have absolutely nothing to live for and no faith in the future of mankind whatsoever.

I've often asked 'what kind of loving God allows so much division of wealth? so much discrimination? so much persecution, so much corporate greed and capitalism'?

The answer is that God/Satan is showing us these things to show us how ugly and terrible the world really is, and if you are not part of the competitive, greedy, selfish majority, then 'turning to God is the only option left. It separates the wheat from the chaff.

If you see all these things happening, but choose to have faith, hope and worship God anyway, you have passed His 'test'. So, in a way, God really is 'testing us'.

Any god that would put us through such suffering and pain just to see if we'll still love and worship it isn't worthy of either of those things.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

So... God's a pretty messed up guy then, eh? He must've had a rough childhood.

I don't know. All I know is that living the 'simple life' and being totally ignorant of the world sounds like a very good idea right now.

I need to get back to 'grass roots' and take simple pleasures to be able to enjoy my life. Everything has just become so unnecessarily....complicated.

 

[Penumbra]

Life does not require it. But is is part of life.

You did say that life requires imperfection though.

But the question is, what type of imperfection is optimal for whatever it is that it's required for? If we can list several examples of things that seem rather clearly not necessary and very harmful, then it's a question for those that claim that the world was created by a loving force. Like would love result in Onchocerciasis, and if so, why? And if not, why does it exist?

A universe that doesn't use a loving god as a hypothesis doesn't have to deal with that question because it's not relevant for the worldview. A proponent of an atheistic universe can simply say it's part of life due to natural selection and we can deal with it how we may. But the existence of creatures and conditions that cause apparently needless suffering is worth bringing up that propose a different view, that the universe was created out of love, for love, or by love.

Is it better to not live?

Depends who you ask.

Surveys of life satisfaction in sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia, don't result in pleasant answers.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Any god that would put us through such suffering and pain just to see if we'll still love and worship it isn't worthy of either of those things.

Didn't He say somewhere that the meek will inherit the earth someday?

Judging by that, there aren't that many 'meek' people left, so not many will inherit the earth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Didn't He say somewhere that the meek will inherit the earth someday?

Judging by that, there aren't that many 'meek' people left, so not many will inherit the earth.

Not that I think "God" was responsible for those useless words, but it was the perfect setup.

 

[lunamoth]

You did say that life requires imperfection though.

But the question is, what type of imperfection is optimal for whatever it is that it's required for? If we can list several examples of things that seem rather clearly not necessary and very harmful, then it's a question for those that claim that the world was created by a loving force. Like would love result in Onchocerciasis, and if so, why? And if not, why does it exist?

Imperfection is imperfection, an imbalance. Disequilibrium. It is necessary for any experience of 'existence.' Preventing harmful also would mean preventing the beneficial, as both are value measures against each other in our eyes. We live in a universe that is 'free,' in that it is not tweaked here and there by God or any other force in favor of us over other parts of creation.

A universe that doesn't use a loving god as a hypothesis doesn't have to deal with that question because it's not relevant for the worldview. A proponent of an atheistic universe can simply say it's part of life due to natural selection and we can deal with it how we may. But the existence of creatures and conditions that cause apparently needless suffering is worth bringing up that propose a different view, that the universe was created out of love, for love, or by love.

Depends who you ask.

Surveys of life satisfaction in sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia, don't result in pleasant answers.

No doubt life in many parts of the world, and for most of the world's history, would be full of suffering. Somehow we all still think it is better to live. What is it that can make life better and lessen suffering?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

5.) God in unaware of suffering... which means he is not omniscient.

Just to flesh it out a little more.

Yeah man, I always used to wonder why that wasn't included, I suppose to make the argument shorter.

But what about this: 6.) God is in suffering... which means he is omnipresent.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Not that I think "God" was responsible for those useless words, but it was the perfect setup.

I liked the Rickroll better.

...but as I said before, I don't think that God 'thinks' anyway - He just acts without thought - which is bloody obvious. lol

That picture looks like the cover of a Rammstein CD.....

Anyway, I refute with this:

....but you know full well I am only playing the 'Devil's Advocate' here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I liked the Rickroll better.

That was an anti-hotlinking picture. Embarrassing.

...but as I said before, I don't think that God 'thinks' anyway - He just acts without thought - which is bloody obvious. lol

Then what's the point?

That picture looks like the cover of a Rammstein CD.....

It's Pinhead from Hellraiser!

Anyway, I refute with this:

....but you know full well I am only playing the 'Devil's Advocate' here.

Tell that to people who kill themselves.

 

[Sees]

Didn't He say somewhere that the meek will inherit the earth someday?

Judging by that, there aren't that many 'meek' people left, so not many will inherit the earth.

This reminds me of the Nietzsche stuff I was reading a few days ago

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Tell that to people who kill themselves.

I was watching Da Vinci Code the other night (never saw it before) and even though it is a work of fiction, it showed a priest tithing and indulging in self-flagellation. So apparently, suffering is good for the soul - so they say.

I've given up 'blaming God' for my predicament, but I cannot blame myself either for circumstances 'beyond my control', nor can I blame 'karma' or 'God's will' or even 'failure to realise Brahman' - because even in an enlightened state, s*** still happens, yet it manages to smell like roses somehow (and I am still trying to work out exactly how).

I guess it all depends on the outlook on life one has.

You know, I really want to find purpose and meaning in my life, but what can I do? How can I progress without any resource or opportunity? I cannot even create my own resources and opportunity.

God is the last 'port of call' left, when you have surrendered your life because it 'cannot get any worse'.

How many potential suicide victims have been saved by the church? by social workers etc?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was watching Da Vinci Code the other night (never saw it before) and even though it is a work of fiction, it showed a priest tithing and indulging in self-flagellation. So apparently, suffering is good for the soul - so they say.

I've given up 'blaming God' for my predicament, but I cannot blame myself either for circumstances 'beyond my control', nor can I blame 'karma' or 'God's will' or even 'failure to realise Brahman' - because even in an enlightened state, s*** still happens, yet it manages to smell like roses somehow (and I am still trying to work out exactly how).

I guess it all depends on the outlook on life one has.

You know, I really want to find purpose and meaning in my life, but what can I do? How can I progress without any resource or opportunity? I cannot even create my own resources and opportunity.

God is the last 'port of call' left, when you have surrendered your life because it 'cannot get any worse'.

How many potential suicide victims have been saved by the church? by social workers etc?

I'm just not interested in gods who make us suffer for petty reasons. If I'm going to beat myself with a whip, I'm going to do it because it gets me off!

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I'm just not interested in gods who make us suffer for petty reasons. If I'm going to beat myself with a whip, I'm going to do it because it gets me off!

I lol'd.

 

[nazz]

Forget about disease and natural disaster. It's difficult to understand how a kind and loving god would allow so much greed and human beings to be so unkind towards each other.

I would love to live in a hippy commune, or on a Kibbutz, or even become a Hindu Quaker. lol

I'd just love to be in a community without any interaction with the 'outside world', who are self-sufficient and grow their own food, who still have a sense of moral decency...

I'd be fully prepared to give up TV, internet, make-up and jewelry, all 'mod cons' for just a bit of peace and quiet - so I don't feel like crying every time I watch the news (my heart is too soft - always has been).

It's got to the point where I cannot find anything 'good' in this world anymore and I have absolutely nothing to live for and no faith in the future of mankind whatsoever.

I've often asked 'what kind of loving God allows so much division of wealth? so much discrimination? so much persecution, so much corporate greed and capitalism'?

The answer is that God/Satan is showing us these things to show us how ugly and terrible the world really is, and if you are not part of the competitive, greedy, selfish majority, then 'turning to God is the only option left. It separates the wheat from the chaff.

If you see all these things happening, but choose to have faith, hope and worship God anyway, you have passed His 'test'. So, in a way, God really is 'testing us'.

Wow. I can so relate to what you are saying even though we come from two entirely different faith traditions. Right now, I am pretty fed up with my fellow humanity. I wake up many days just wincing at the idea of facing another day in this horrible world. Your post made me think of two Christians scriptures:

Jhn 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
​

I remember the day when I finally said it: "I hate this world" (there was probably an F word in there too).

You are not alone my friend.

 

[George-ananda]

Wow, this thread has gotten so gloomy, negative, depressing, pessimistic, nihilistic, etc..

I was going to post another positive thinking post here but I don't think I could stomach hearing.....'tell that positive crap to some starving child with AIDs and flesh-eating viruses I never heard of allowed by some God who could only be evil if he did exist; which he obviously doesn't...blah, blah

Ok, time for me to put George-ananda to bed.

 

[Penumbra]

Imperfection is imperfection, an imbalance. Disequilibrium. It is necessary for any experience of 'existence.' Preventing harmful also would mean preventing the beneficial, as both are value measures against each other in our eyes. We live in a universe that is 'free,' in that it is not tweaked here and there by God or any other force in favor of us over other parts of creation.

What beneficial thing requires the existence of Onchocerciasis?

Or, once in a while, a child is born without any arms or legs. Wouldn't the universe be ever so slightly better if that didn't happen? Would we lose much from that change?

Bill Gates is currently using some of the resources of the world's largest charitable foundation to try to eradicate polio once and for all. Would eradicating polio prevent something beneficial? Should he stop?

If a deity exists, but doesn't have any preference between humans and a microscopic parasite that bases its existence around finding hosts to breed and as a byproduct cause pain and blindness, then wouldn't that agree with the OP of the thread about there not being a loving god? Like, would that count as loving?

No doubt life in many parts of the world, and for most of the world's history, would be full of suffering. Somehow we all still think it is better to live.

Who is we? I mean, some people don't think it's better to live, like the approximately 1 million people that kill themselves each year, or the countless others that live in a sort of quiet desperation. Suicide is a taboo for most cultures and religions that often comes with a price of cultural shame and threat of a negative afterlife, and life has a strong instinct for survival even when well-being isn't there anyway, so the existence of life doesn't necessarily mean that all of those people enjoy being alive. Like in world surveys of subjective happiness and life satisfaction (two related but different things), the places that report really bad numbers, like significant portions of the population rating their life as a 0/10, 1/10, 2/10, 3/10 or 4/10, aren't killing themselves in percentages anywhere close to the percentages of people reporting terrible scores. Slightly over 50% of people in sub-Saharan Africa report a 4 or less on a happiness scale out of 10. Less than 5% rate life as 8/10 or better. So they're just continuing to live with an F for happiness and life satisfaction, basically.

The theology of most religions describes the world in a negative way, as some answer to the problem of suffering. Much of Christian theology describes the world as a fallen and ruined place, with the reward and the real life for believers being in the afterlife. Much of Islam theology describes this life as a test, and in the afterlife believers get endless paradise and unbelievers get endless torture. Much of Buddhist, Hindu, and other Dharmic theology describes this life as a big illusion that we are trapped in through multiple lifetimes of reincarnation or rebirth, and that we should try escape from that cycle to put an end to suffering. It's generally only some of the smaller religions that actually suggest that this life is basically it, or good enough to be worth trying to maximize in and of itself without concern for another life.

What is it that can make life better and lessen suffering?

That depends on which universe you're referring to. In a universe where some loving being is the most powerful force in existence, then it can make life better and lessen suffering by having created it differently. In a universe where there is no creating loving force, it's humans or nothing that can make life better and lessen suffering.

There's often a cost though when we do things though because we're starting from a rather precarious position to begin with. Most of the happiest places in the world use more resources than are sustainable, which therefore makes them not a good model to try to replicate. Scientists can try to eradicate diseases that cause so much suffering, which could mean trying to eradicate something like a virus or bacteria, or could mean trying to eradicate nematodes or other multi-cellular life. Some of them don't seem to benefit the ecosystem in any way but others maybe do, so there's always a risk of tampering. Like, you wouldn't want to eradicate some nematode that causes pain and blindness for thousands of people, but then find out that through several steps that weren't previously seen, something awful like that needs to continue to exist for the food chain to stay in place, and so without it their regional food chain partially collapses and people starve.

I don't think there's much that humanity can do about suffering in the wildlife since the predator/prey system is ubiquitous and has existed for eons, and there are things we can do about human suffering, and suffering caused by humans, but only to some degree. There are countless diseases to try to work through for a solution (which generally pays the cost of testing on other animals and then on humans), then there are multiple economic problems in various places to solve without destroying the environment when successful, then there's the human overpopulation problem, then there's spreading education to try to solve suffering caused by ignorance, then there are the various wars and ethnic violence and crime to try to reduce, then there are social injustices to try to fix like oppression of sexual or religious minorities in various areas, etc.

 

[Penumbra]

Wow, this thread has gotten so gloomy, negative, depressing, pessimistic, nihilistic, etc..

I was going to post another positive thinking post here but I don't think I could stomach hearing.....'tell that positive crap to some starving child with AIDs and flesh-eating viruses I never heard of allowed by some God who could only be evil if he did exist; which he obviously doesn't...blah, blah

Ok, time for me to put George-ananda to bed.

Would you expect a thread about highlighting the negative qualities of the world as evidence against the existence of a loving god, to be positive?

Imagine the people that actually live through it and can't go to sleep and forget about it.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Wow, this thread has gotten so gloomy, negative, depressing, pessimistic, nihilistic, etc..

I was going to post another positive thinking post here but I don't think I could stomach hearing.....'tell that positive crap to some starving child with AIDs and flesh-eating viruses I never heard of allowed by some God who could only be evil if he did exist; which he obviously doesn't...blah, blah

Its a thread RE the problem of evil, what did you expect, sunshine and puppy dogs?