Surprising lack of knowledge among theists.

[lilithu]

When did Christianity first start being thought of as a nationality?

More like ethnicity.

I'd say it started as soon as it became something that you pass down to your kids. It's much more pronounced in Judaism and Hinduism, because these are non-proselytizing faiths tied more to birth. But all religions have a certain amount of this. Jaiket has talked about the "ethnicity" of being either Catholic or Protestant where he is. It's independent of whether you even believe in God. And Djamila, who used to post on RF talked about how just from someone's last name she could tell whether they were Christian or Muslim. I have so many friends who say they are Catholic even tho they don't go to church and don't believe a lot of the stuff from the Vatican. It is part of one's identity, not just a set of beliefs to which one assents or not. Surely you understand this?

 

[fantome profane]

When did Christianity first start being thought of as a nationality?

The middle ages.

 

[lilithu]

Anyone born in America is an American. But being a neo-conservative for example has to do with what one believes, a child of neo-conservatives is not a neo-conservative unless and until that child is capable of understanding what it means and agrees.

If being a Christian is like the former not the latter then it is no more than an accident of birth. And if it is nothing more than an accident of birth then it being a Christian has nothing to do with beliefs, ideas or spirituality. This doesn’t seem right to me.

But if it is like the latter then how can you call a child a Christian until that child is capable of understanding and choosing to be a Christian?

IT IS BOTH.

 

[fantome profane]

IT IS BOTH.

BUT SHOULD IT BE BOTH?

See I can yell too.

The question is should we be labeling children with all this dogmatic baggage before they are able to understand it? I don’t think it is fair to them.

 

[lilithu]

BUT SHOULD IT BE BOTH?

See I can yell too.

If you consider that yelling, I apologize. I did not take your first sentence as yelling until your second sentence.

The question is should we be labeling children with all this dogmatic baggage before they are able to understand it? I don’t think it is fair to them.

I don't know how to answer that. I said it is both because it IS. But as for what you think should be the case, how are you going to prevent it anyway?

A parent has a child. The parent thinks that his or her country is the best in the world, and tells the child so. The parent thinks that his or her religion is the truth, and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all countries and all religions are equal and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all religion is bunk and tells the child so. Who is "indoctrinating" their kid and who isn't?

 

[Scuba Pete]

The question is should we be labeling children with all this dogmatic baggage before they are able to understand it? I don’t think it is fair to them.

Yeah. We should.

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picked, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

 

[fantome profane]

If you consider that yelling, I apologize. I did not take your first sentence as yelling until your second sentence.

I'm just teasing you, see the big smilie - . Don't worry about it.

I don't know how to answer that. I said it is both because it IS. But as for what you think should be the case, how are you going to prevent it anyway?

A parent has a child. The parent thinks that his or her country is the best in the world, and tells the child so. The parent thinks that his or her religion is the truth, and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all countries and all religions are equal and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all religion is bunk and tells the child so. Who is "indoctrinating" their kid and who isn't?

What I would suggest is expanding our consciousness on this issue. That when we hear a child of 5 years old being refered to a "Christian" or a "Muslim" or whatever we should automatically realize that it just ain't so. That it makes no more sense then saying the 5 year old is a "Marxist". And this is Dawkins theory and I agree with it.

 

[lilithu]

I'm just teasing you, see the big smilie - . Don't worry about it.

Ah, I just took the big smilie to mean you weren't mad.

What I would suggest is expanding our consciousness on this issue. That when we hear a child of 5 years old being refered to a "Christian" or a "Muslim" or whatever we should automatically realize that it just ain't so. That it makes no more sense then saying the 5 year old is a "Marxist". And this is Dawkins theory and I agree with it.

Can you remind me why we're talking about this? I don't think, when there are polls done on these things, that kids get counted. So what is the issue here?

And while I was not Christian when I was five, I was most definitely a theist. That was not an identity that my parents put upon me. (In fact neither one of them are theists.) I knew that I believed in God. I just wasn't exactly sure what God was (and still ain't).

 

[fantome profane]

Can you remind me why we're talking about this? I don't think, when there are polls done on these things, that kids get counted. So what is the issue here?

And while I was not Christian when I was five, I was most definitely a theist. That was not an identity that my parents put upon me. (In fact neither one of them are theists.) I knew that I believed in God. I just wasn't exactly sure what God was (and still ain't).

Well we are probably way off topic here but I think I owe you a response.

Actually I think they are recorded in polls. And what about schools, religious schools or even secular public schools where they talk about how many Catholic or Protestant students there are? The point is that we should recognize that children just don’t have the understanding necessary to understand and access these religious issues. There is simply no such thing as a Christian child (at least not a young one). And when we hear about a group of “Christian” or “Muslim” children playing in the park this kind of description should bother us. It bothers me.

And when I was 5 I believed that there were monsters living under my bed and there was a secret door in the back of my closet that lead to a magical land. I am much older now and I am just not as sure about these things as I once was.

 

[lilithu]

And what about schools, religious schools or even secular public schools where they talk about how many Catholic or Protestant students there are? The point is that we should recognize that children just don’t have the understanding necessary to understand and access these religious issues. There is simply no such thing as a Christian child (at least not a young one). And when we hear about a group of “Christian” or “Muslim” children playing in the park this kind of description should bother us. It bothers me.

But that's where the term is used more like an ethnicity. Muslim and Christian children may not understand all the nuances of their respective faiths, but they know who they are.

When I hear of a group of "Christian" kids, I do not think oh, those are kids who believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for their sins. Instead what I think is that they probably celebrate Christmas and Easter. Religion isn't just about ideas. That's such a small part of it.

This thread started with the assertion that many Christians do not know factoids about their own faith. They may not fully understand the theology either. Are you going to claim they're not Christian when they say they are?

 

[lilithu]

I agree. The very idea of expecting people to live by their own holy book, the one they say they base their entire belief system on. Why don't you go tell some Christians that their Bible is just a bunch of factoids?

I was just at an interfaith dialogue tonight and the topic was "What's the one thing that you want others to know about your religion - the one misconception that you would like to clear up?" And this Christian woman said that her thing was that she wanted non-Christians to know just how diverse Christianity is - the HUGE range - and to stop thinking that all Christians are biblical fundamentalists.

But why would anyone want to acknowledge reality when it's so much easier to attack a stereotype and feel superior about it?

 

[fantome profane]

But that's where the term is used more like an ethnicity. Muslim and Christian children may not understand all the nuances of their respective faiths, but they know who they are.

When I hear of a group of "Christian" kids, I do not think oh, those are kids who believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for their sins. Instead what I think is that they probably celebrate Christmas and Easter. Religion isn't just about ideas. That's such a small part of it.

This thread started with the assertion that many Christians do not know factoids about their own faith. They may not fully understand the theology either. Are you going to claim they're not Christian when they say they are?

All I am claiming is that the children aren’t. They don’t even necessarily claim it for themselves it is usually claimed for them. And even if they do claim it I don’t think young children should be held accountable to ideas that they don’t understand.

I understand you point that these terms are used in a manner similar to ethnic divisions. But the distinction is not always that clear. And I don’t think the term should be used in this ethnic sense. It loses all meaning when it is used that way. It actually demeans the terms (that is not what Dawkins would say but it is true). And it creates artificial divisions where they don’t need to be. This is not about parents teaching their children. I am talking about society imposing labels on those children. I am talking about society and the media reinforcing these religious labels. And no, 5 year old children do not “know who they are”. They only know what we tell them they are.

I also realize that most people don’t think “oh, those are kids who believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for their sins”. But what I think is that most people don’t think about it at all, and they should.

(and that’s it for me. Good Night. :curtsy: )

 

[Sententia]

A parent has a child. The parent thinks that his or her country is the best in the world, and tells the child so. The parent thinks that his or her religion is the truth, and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all countries and all religions are equal and tells the child so. Or the parent thinks that all religion is bunk and tells the child so. Who is "indoctrinating" their kid and who isn't?

Good point. Dawkins does dedicate a whole chapter to discussing this in the God Delusion... did you read it by chance?

I wont summarize... But IMHO if a parent teaches their kids in such a way as the kid can make up their own mind then it MAY not be indoctrination. But if you watch Jesus Camp... Not all religious people are indoctrinating their children.

 

[lunamoth]

In Dawkin's "The God Delusion", he quotes some statistics in studies about Christians in the U.S. as follows:

1. 75 percent of them could not name 1 old testament prophet.
2. 50 percent of them did not know who gave the Sermon on the Mount.
3. > 50 percent of them thought Moses was one of the disciples of Christ.

And this is in a religious country like the U.S. What conclusions can be drawn from such a woeful lack of knowledge about people's own religion?

Hmmm, seems to indicate that we are not doing a very good job "indoctrinating" our children about their religion.

 

[lilithu]

I wont summarize... But IMHO if a parent teaches their kids in such a way as the kid can make up their own mind then it MAY not be indoctrination.

MAY not be. Oh gee thanks for allowing for the possibility.

But if you watch Jesus Camp...

I watched Jesus Camp when it first came out, along with other UUs. And yeah, we were disturbed by what we saw. But upon reflection (which is part of our religious practice), we couldn't say that our objection was based on anything other than the fact that we disagreed with what was being taught. Other people "indoctrinate" too. The atheist father who tells his kids there's no God is indoctrinating just as much as the evangelical fundie mother who tells her kids that God is watching. And even us UUs who constantly tell our kids that there are many paths to truth and that they should try to respect everyone - that's indoctrination. The only difference is whether you agree with the message or not.

We were disturbed by little kids at Christian camp. But then it occurred to us that we take our kids to anti-war/pro-peace demonstrations and to pro-choice rallies and to BGLT equality marches and to interfaith vigils. We do this because we truly believe these things are right and true and just, and we want to share the experiences with our kids. But the other people feel the same way about their beliefs. Surely some conservative Christian who sees us with our kids at a BGLT equality rally thinks that we're indoctrinating our kids to believe sinful things. *shrug*

So what's the alternative? No one teaches their kids ANYTHING? I don't think so.

 

[Magic Man]

MAY not be. Oh gee thanks for allowing for the possibility.


I watched Jesus Camp when it first came out, along with other UUs. And yeah, we were disturbed by what we saw. But upon reflection (which is part of our religious practice), we couldn't say that our objection was based on anything other than the fact that we disagreed with what was being taught. Other people "indoctrinate" too. The atheist father who tells his kids there's no God is indoctrinating just as much as the evangelical fundie mother who tells her kids that God is watching. And even us UUs who constantly tell our kids that there are many paths to truth and that they should try to respect everyone - that's indoctrination. The only difference is whether you agree with the message or not.

We were disturbed by little kids at Christian camp. But then it occurred to us that we take our kids to anti-war/pro-peace demonstrations and to pro-choice rallies and to BGLT equality marches and to interfaith vigils. We do this because we truly believe these things are right and true and just, and we want to share the experiences with our kids. But the other people feel the same way about their beliefs. Surely some conservative Christian who sees us with our kids at a BGLT equality rally thinks that we're indoctrinating our kids to believe sinful things. *shrug*

So what's the alternative? No one teaches their kids ANYTHING? I don't think so.

No, the alternative is that we teach our kids why we believe certain things, and that we teach them that these things may not be the right thins for everyone. It's important that we teach our kids to think for themselves, and know how to discern for themselves what is right and what is wrong. This could lead to any number of things, like theism, atheism, or any other religion, or mix thereof. They will see us do things and tend to follow an example generally, but we need to teach them why. Instead of telling them "We're going to a BGLT equality rally because they should have equal rights", we should explain why we think they should have equal rights, and what the other side is.

 

[Sententia]

No, the alternative is that we teach our kids why we believe certain things, and that we teach them that these things may not be the right thins for everyone. It's important that we teach our kids to think for themselves, and know how to discern for themselves what is right and what is wrong. This could lead to any number of things, like theism, atheism, or any other religion, or mix thereof. They will see us do things and tend to follow an example generally, but we need to teach them why. Instead of telling them "We're going to a BGLT equality rally because they should have equal rights", we should explain why they should have equal rights, and what the other side is.

Agreed. It is better to instill in a child methodology to figure things out for themselves rather then tell them what is correct. I have never told my child there is no god nor that I don't believe in one. They will decide for themselves what their best path is. If they ever asked me I would tell them.

Regarding jesus camp and similar events... that is abuse. Those children were overcome with emotion and were not of age for those types of situations. Eye opening movie to the horrendous indoctrination some kids in america today are forced to endure.

 

[Autodidact]

I was just at an interfaith dialogue tonight and the topic was "What's the one thing that you want others to know about your religion - the one misconception that you would like to clear up?" And this Christian woman said that her thing was that she wanted non-Christians to know just how diverse Christianity is - the HUGE range - and to stop thinking that all Christians are biblical fundamentalists.

But why would anyone want to acknowledge reality when it's so much easier to attack a stereotype and feel superior about it?

Oh believe me, I'm well aware that no two Christians think that being a Christian is the same thing, or often that the other one is a True Christian. I've been around the boards. I well realize that there is actually no core concept that defines a Christian or Christianity, and that there is no agreement on what it means to be a Christian. The term itself verges on incoherence. I have met (online) "Christians" who do not accept the divinity of Christ.

Meanwhile, if you want to assert that Christianity does not rest on the truth of the Bible, I suggest that you take that up with the millions of Christians who believe and assert that it does, not with me. It was not me who asserted as a stated fact that Christianity is a revealed religion not dependent on the facts of the Bible. For him apparently it isn't, while for millions of other Christians it is. Because, remember, Christianity is diverse, and some/many Christians are Biblical fundamentalists.

Meanwhile, what's interesting is that millions of Christians, many of them Biblical literalists and fundamentalists, do not know what's actually in the Bible, having read only carefully edited and selected passages. Weird.

 

[Autodidact]

Hmmm, seems to indicate that we are not doing a very good job "indoctrinating" our children about their religion.

Not really. They're Christians, all right. Just ask them. They just don't seem to feel that being Christian entails much Biblical knowledge. I find this odd, possibly because of my Jewish upbringing? Judaism is much more academically and knowledge oriented (as well as action oriented) than Christianity. Christianity seems to be mostly about faith. In Judaism we are taught that what you do and how you act matters more than what you believe. In fact, I distinctly remember as a child being told by our rabbi that if you did not believe in God, the important thing was to follow His commandments nonetheless.

 

[Autodidact]

MAY not be. Oh gee thanks for allowing for the possibility.


I watched Jesus Camp when it first came out, along with other UUs. And yeah, we were disturbed by what we saw. But upon reflection (which is part of our religious practice), we couldn't say that our objection was based on anything other than the fact that we disagreed with what was being taught. Other people "indoctrinate" too. The atheist father who tells his kids there's no God is indoctrinating just as much as the evangelical fundie mother who tells her kids that God is watching. And even us UUs who constantly tell our kids that there are many paths to truth and that they should try to respect everyone - that's indoctrination. The only difference is whether you agree with the message or not.

Except that not many atheists do this, and even fewer take their children to a special place once a week to hear and repeat and sing about how there is no God.

Speaking for myself, you can ask any of my kids, and they'll tell you that:
(1) God is something that everyone has to figure out for themselves.
(2) What their own opinion is on the subject.
(3) Their mom does not believe there is a God.
Rather different from spending a lot of time drumming into their little minds that their eternal salvation depends on believing the same thing as me.

We were disturbed by little kids at Christian camp. But then it occurred to us that we take our kids to anti-war/pro-peace demonstrations and to pro-choice rallies and to BGLT equality marches and to interfaith vigils. We do this because we truly believe these things are right and true and just, and we want to share the experiences with our kids. But the other people feel the same way about their beliefs. Surely some conservative Christian who sees us with our kids at a BGLT equality rally thinks that we're indoctrinating our kids to believe sinful things. *shrug*

Yes, that's true. My kids love gay pride marches, but I guess that's because I've brought them up to love gay pride?! I'm sure not going to raise them to despise themselves and their families. It's complicated, isn't it?

So what's the alternative? No one teaches their kids ANYTHING? I don't think so.

Interesting subject, deserves its own thread.