Surprising lack of knowledge among theists.

[Scuba Pete]

As antisemitic talking points go, the "Jews control foreign policy"/"international Jewish conspiracy" proudly shares the stage with the Protocols of Zion, and is no less dispicable when blessed by some 'autodidact'.

Jay, I fear that they actually believe this tripe. They have swallowed the lie, hook line and sinker.

 

[Sunstone]

I think Malcom Hoenlein is being both rational and judicious to state, "I can't judge whether it's anti-Semitism." To treat Dawkins' statement as conclusive evidence of anti-Semitism is unwarranted.

 

[tinujatinpatel]

It is very true. I myself am no better. You will find that everyone in one way or another does not know the bible entirely. If they do, they may not understand it entirely. After all that is something only GOD can do. People have to be hungry for God's word and then the holy spirit can act through them by given them insight and knowledge.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To treat Dawkins' statement as conclusive evidence ...

How clever. It is conclusive evidence of his endorsement of an antisemitic talking point.

 

[fantome profane]

It is very true. I myself am no better. You will find that everyone in one way or another does not know the bible entirely. If they do, they may not understand it entirely. After all that is something only GOD can do. People have to be hungry for God's word and then the holy spirit can act through them by given them insight and knowledge.

Wow, somebody is actually on topic! Good post.

 

[Sunstone]

How clever. It is conclusive evidence of his endorsement of an antisemitic talking point.

Jay, in the first place, I'm not trying to be clever. In the second place, I don't think Dawkins' statement necessarily reflects his personal endorsement of an anti-Semitic talking point, and I think it's an unwarranted exaggeration and distortion of his message in context to say it does. Last, even had Dawkins said, "I believe the Israeli lobby in the United States monopolizes American foreign policy" -- which is not something he said -- that statement would not necessarily mean he was an anti-Semite.

 

[Poisonshady313]

It is very true. I myself am no better. You will find that everyone in one way or another does not know the bible entirely. If they do, they may not understand it entirely. After all that is something only GOD can do. People have to be hungry for God's word and then the holy spirit can act through them by given them insight and knowledge.

Nobody's asking anybody to know it entirely... but is it too much to ask for a bit of general knowledge of the subject you stake your eternal wellbeing and temporal behavior on?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Jay, in the first place, I'm not trying to be clever. In the second place, I don't think Dawkins' statement necessarily reflects his personal endorsement of an anti-Semitic talking point, and I think it's an unwarranted exaggeration and distortion of his message in context to say it does. Last, even had Dawkins said, "I believe the Israeli lobby in the United States monopolizes American foreign policy" -- which is not something he said -- that statement would not necessarily mean he was an anti-Semite.

When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place.

Maintaining the notion that Jews have or are trying to gain some amazing control over the media, or over the finances of the world, or over the United States (if only it's foreign policy) is something straight from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Having some measure of influence does not equal "more or less monopolise".

 

[Autodidact]

I had never contemplated the existence of an "Uncle Tom Jew" until this very moment. I also lost family in concentration camps: both in Germany and in China. It amazes me that the horror of bigotry somehow escapes you. Well, thanks for the personal attack! I will cherish it along with all the others.

Right. It couldn't possibly be that I just disagree with you, I must be an Uncle Tom! Rhymes with ad hom.

Please explain to me how recognizing the reality that the American Jewish Community has established a lobbying arm that exerts influence on American foreign policy disproportionate to our numbers is bigoted. Or do you deny that reality? It's just the facts, Jack, and good for us. It's the right of every American to do their best to influence the Democratic system, and nothing wrong with it or to be ashamed of. I only hope that atheists can be half as effective.

I won't go into my personal history but I assure you that the horror of bigotry does not escape me; on the contrary, I have spent much of my life studying its causes and cures. And falsely accusing any statement about Jews of being bigoted contributes nothing to that understanding. Are you Jewish, by the way? Anyone else here Jewish? Do you find that statement bigoted?

This is my idea of anti-Jewish bigotry, which is very real and very dangerous:

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.
-Martin Luther (founder of modern Protestant Christianity)

 

[Sunstone]

When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place.

Maintaining the notion that Jews have or are trying to gain some amazing control over the media, or over the finances of the world, or over the United States (if only it's foreign policy) is something straight from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Having some measure of influence does not equal "more or less monopolise".

Are you suggesting that because Dawkins' statement resembles something that could be found in an anti-Semitic book that he, Dawkins, is anti-Semitic? Some people who are pro-American, some who are neutral towards America, and some who are anti-American all say that America is a vast superpower that intervenes in the internal affairs of many other countries. And so far as I know, some people who are pro-Israel, some who are neutral towards Israel, and some who are anti-Israel all say that Israel has a lobby in the United States unsurpassed for its power and influence over American foreign policy. The mere fact that someone thinks Israel monopolizes American foreign policy does not automatically make them anti-Semitic.

 

[Autodidact]

Jews don't control our foreign policy, Jay, that's just silly, and nothing Dawkins would be wrong enough to believe or say. Jews exert a strong influence on our foreign policy, due to our effective lobbying arm and willingness to make substantial donations to political candidates who support Israel. We also vote in greater numbers than other groups.

There's also the weird coincidence that right-wing Christians support Israel for doctrinal reasons, which is probably as significant as Jewish support for Israel.

These are just the facts.

 

[Autodidact]

PoisonShady: did you find Dawkins' statement bigoted?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jews don't control our foreign policy, Jay, that's just silly, and nothing Dawkins would be wrong enough to believe or say.

Thanks for the clarification ...

 

[gnomon]

I think Malcom Hoenlein is being both rational and judicious to state, "I can't judge whether it's anti-Semitism." To treat Dawkins' statement as conclusive evidence of anti-Semitism is unwarranted.

How dare you. You're thinking rationally rather than jumping to conclusions and inserting your own prejudices into a random quote from a newspaper quoting itself.

It is very true. I myself am no better. You will find that everyone in one way or another does not know the bible entirely. If they do, they may not understand it entirely. After all that is something only GOD can do. People have to be hungry for God's word and then the holy spirit can act through them by given them insight and knowledge.

And yes, fantome is right. Congratulations on a well put post.
Frubals to you.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Right. It couldn't possibly be that I just disagree with you, I must be an Uncle Tom! Rhymes with ad hom.

you sound hysterical and full of baloney.

JUST disagree with me? Talk about an understatement.

This is my idea of anti-Jewish bigotry, which is very real and very dangerous:

Do you think this happened in a vacuum? It started with people like YOU accepting statements such as Dawkins' as being reasonable.

I really don't give a rat's patootie that you guys worship Dawkins to the point that you are willing to overlook his BIGOTRY. I don't care that you are tired of having me point it out to you. Bigotry is WRONG. Saying that Jews MONOPOLIZE foreign policy shows a deep seated phobia. It's a bigoted statement, and will ALWAYS be a bigoted statement. You can polish this turd all you want: it's still a turd.

 

[gnomon]

The hypocrisy in this thread is palpable.

 

[gnomon]

If the Guardian article is the best that has been offered thus far..........

well that's pathetic. Hardly surprising though. Considering that Dawkin's was discussing the OUT movement for secularists prior to this article. In his articles he does mention the Jewish lobby. Directly relating to the number of religious Jews and how politicians campaign to that demographic while secularists/non-religious outnumber religious Jews according to most polls.

Wow, a regular Himmler.

So, to recap.

If you agree with the chapter of the God Delusion that the OP is from then you believe that everyone, religious or not, should study religions not only of your culture but others as well in order to understand human society, history and literature but that makes you an anti-Semite bent on the destruction of Israel.

I'm not making this **** up people. Just read the examples of Dawkin's bigotry supplied so far in relevant context to the OP.

We have a moral responsibility to be intelligent indeed.

edit: So I propose a moratorium on this thread. Until those who believe Dawkins is a bigoted anti-Semite actually come up with something more intelligent than has been provided so far this thread should just die. MidnightBlue, before he left, already created a spin off of this thread which brought discussion of the OP into focus and dwarfs the small minded garbage presented here.

"Uncle Tom Jew".....what a stupid man.:sarcastic Oh no...here come the warnings for bullying and trolling.

 

[Autodidact]

JUST disagree with me? Talk about an understatement. Do you think this happened in a vacuum? It started with people like YOU accepting statements such as Dawkins' as being reasonable.

What are you talking about? Luther became anti-semitic because he was around atheists who admired the Jewish lobby? I have no idea what you might be trying to say or imply. No, I don't think Luther's statements were made in a vacuum, I think they were symptomatic of the virulently anti-semitic culture in which he was raised, and the anti-semitism inherent in Christian theology.

I really don't give a rat's patootie that you guys worship Dawkins to the point that you are willing to overlook his BIGOTRY. I don't care that you are tired of having me point it out to you. Bigotry is WRONG. Saying that Jews MONOPOLIZE foreign policy shows a deep seated phobia. It's a bigoted statement, and will ALWAYS be a bigoted statement. You can polish this turd all you want: it's still a turd.

Here's how you now it's not bigoted. The point of the statement is that Atheists should emulate Jews in this regard. Hence it could not possibly be negative regarding Jews, since what he is advocating is that atheists be more like them.

 

[Autodidact]

btw, Scuba, if my mother, the concentration camp survivor who instilled in me life-long pride in my Jewish identity, (were she still with us) were to hear you call me an Uncle Tom and Dawkins a bigot--well she'd be greatly surprised. She knew anti-semitism when it murdered her entire family. You never did answer my question--are you Jewish?

 

[Storm]

I thought the remark had a bit of a stench about it, but I wouldn't go so far as to call Dawkins an anti-Semite.