Teeth are evidence for a creator!

[firedragon]

I have never encountered perfection as I pointed out in my first response so can't measure it. In my last response I stated I judge it by common sense.

You mean arbitrary statements as you feel! Thats an invalid argument. One would say "My common sense says that this is perfect design and I know it". So you are not allowed to ask "how" because the answer would be "common sense".

Heart disease, cancer and alheimer's are a bit more serious than bad breath. And as far as I know there is no bench mark for perfection.

Exactly. Without a bench mark, you are just wishing. Praying. And since your prayers dont seem to be answered like some pray for magical powers, all one could do is make some bitter comment and think its reasonable. No its not. This is just apologetics. Someone like you should move beyond this kind of evangelical apologetics.

Is this the point? It was never meant to be a complete argument

I know that. But as an intellectual, you should engage with the argument you are making. Unless your position is "I just make random comments, and no one should ask questions".

Its illogical John.

Maybe if you made your point in your first post instead of trying to show your superior intellect. If it's a battle of wits you want I concede, I'm a poorly educated old fat bald Australian. If you want to discuss something in a friendly adult way then fine.

On the first post, that's exactly what I did. Make the point. I mean you could go back and read it.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well if teeth weren't in the right place one would probably starve to death.

Ehh there’s always soup

 

[John53]

You mean arbitrary statements as you feel! Thats an invalid argument. One would say "My common sense says that this is perfect design and I know it". So you are not allowed to ask "how" because the answer would be "common sense".

If you provided a link with evidence of the perfection sure. I'd read it and not pretend later on that you just made a claim without supporting evidence.

Exactly. Without a bench mark, you are just wishing. Praying. And since your prayers dont seem to be answered like some pray for magical powers, all one could do is make some bitter comment and think its reasonable. No its not. This is just apologetics. Someone like you should move beyond this kind of evangelical apologetics.

You keep forgetting I included some evidence. If you think the evidence is not strong I would discuss it with you and provide more.

I know that. But as an intellectual, you should engage with the argument you are making. Unless your position is "I just make random comments, and no one should ask questions".

I can only answer the questions you ask, you did not challenge the evidence other than trying to pass cancer, heart disease etc off as bad breath.

I've never claimed to be an intellectual, I'm an average bloke who enjoys discussion and has too much time on his hands

Its illogical John.

Could be but if you explained that in the first post I could have defended it or agreed I'd made an error.

On the first post, that's exactly what I did. Make the point. I mean you could go back and read it.

Don't need to go back, I remember.You asked for an example of a perfect design.

 

[firedragon]

If you provided a link with evidence of the perfection sure.

John. Perfect design is not within anyones capacity. What you must understand is, it is absolutely subjective and every one will have their own idea of a super design for themselves. If you ask me, I would like to have some kind of magical powers. Its a slippery slope.

You keep forgetting I included some evidence.

No you did not John. Your evidence was that we have diseases. I dont think to tell me human beings have diseases you have to give evidences.

I can only answer the questions you ask, you did not challenge the evidence other than trying to pass cancer, heart disease etc off as bad breath.

You just made that up. So that's the end of that discussion.

Have a good day.

 

[John53]

No you did not John. Your evidence was that we have diseases.

Which are linked to the teeth. You keep dismissing the evidence without discussion. I'm beginning to think you didn't read the link.

You just made that up

Nope

What you should understand is that you are making a wish for yourself and bad breath not being one of your wishes for yourself

Your link is speaking about bad breath and how it affects some health issues.

You must have forgotten what you typed.

So that's the end of that discussion.

I don't need your permission to end or continue a discussion.

 

[PruePhillip]

)

Please, WHY do you need 'evidence' for a creator? You can neither prove nor disprove the creator.
But remember just this - the universe did not, could not, create itself before it existed.

 

[shunyadragon]

Please, WHY do you need 'evidence' for a creator? You can neither prove nor disprove the creator.
But remember just this - the universe did not, could not, create itself before it existed.

The bold above is problematic and is anthropomorphic in terms of how science considers the orign of our universe and the physical existence that includes our universe. We have no evidence of 'nothing before' our universe existed not of any such absolute beginning. There are a number of hypothesis concerning the beginning of our universe as singularity in a multiverse to a cyclic universe with no beginning. All the evidence we have at present is that Natural Laws and natural processes of Quantum Mechanics underlies all of our physical existence.

Yes, the universe 'cannot create itself.'

 

[firedragon]

I don't need your permission to end or continue a discussion.

I never insinuated anything of such nature.

Thanks.

 

[PruePhillip]

The bold above is problematic and is anthropomorphic in terms of how science considers the orign of our universe and the physical existence that includes our universe. We have no evidence of 'nothing before' our universe existed not of any such absolute beginning. There are a number of hypothesis concerning the beginning of our universe as singularity in a multiverse to a cyclic universe with no beginning. All the evidence we have at present is that Natural Laws and natural processes of Quantum Mechanics underlies all of our physical existence.

Yes, the universe 'cannot create itself.'

Maybe. We dont know, and maybe there's a limited spectrum of knowledge that we ever can
understand. But various ideas of energy or quantum fluctuations etc creating the universe have
one big problem - the proposed mechanisms were themselves created with the formation of
the universe.
Notions of an endlessly recycling universe avoid the question, and in any case it seems our
universe will expand till it rips.
And yes, no 'evidence' of what lies before (though M-theory has some ideas of pre-Big Bang)
and I suggest, evidence itself is a property of our physical universe.

 

[shunyadragon]

Maybe. We dont know, and maybe there's a limited spectrum of knowledge that we ever can
understand. But various ideas of energy or quantum fluctuations etc creating the universe have
one big problem - the proposed mechanisms were themselves created with the formation of
the universe.

'Maybe. We dont know, and maybe there's a limited spectrum of knowledge that we ever can
understand.'

This is a classic 'arguing from ignorance' which presents a problem that your assertion using the word 'Create' represent a view that absolutely does not fit the evidence that we do have with a religious agenda. We do know a lot about our universe and Quantum MEchanics that you are ignoring..

Created is a problematic word in science. Quantum fluctuations DO NOT create the universe. By the objective evidence Quantum fluctuation exist now and by the present evidence have always existed. ALL the present evidence demonstrates that Quantum fluctuations and Quantum Gravity exist now and are a part of the process whether originating in a singularity or cyclic, The current various hypothesis demonstrate that Quantum fluctuations and Quantum Gravity existed when the singularity formed and always existed if the Cyclic universe is the case, which is very relevant.

Notions of an endlessly recycling universe avoid the question, and in any case it seems our universe will expand till it rips.

It seems is meaningless.

Bold is unknown and as stated false. The research article from the peer reviewed Physics mag demonstrates that a cyclic universe is possible with no known ending nor beginning.

And yes, no 'evidence' of what lies before (though M-theory has some ideas of pre-Big Bang)
and I suggest, evidence itself is a property of our physical universe.

Careful the statement that there is no evidence is false, and you are drawing conclusions from 'arguing from ignorance,' which you are making your statements based on the fact that all that questions are not answered.

There is absolutely no evidence for an absolute beginning for our universe nor the physical existence that our universe is a part of.

Unless you come up with something better your posts sound like a religious agenda. There is absolutely no evidence anything is Created. I see a lot of the foolishness of 'universe cannot Create itself' from irrational religious sources.

 

[John53]

I never insinuated anything of such nature.

Thanks.

Aww gee and here I was thinking you would apologise for falsely claiming I made stuff up. Should have known that evidence would be chopped out and some pointless comment made in lieu.

 

[firedragon]

Aww gee and here I was thinking you would apologise for falsely claiming I made stuff up.

Yes you did John. You said, that I reduced your cancer and other diseases to "bad breath".

So unless you can provide that post I claimed that, it was just made up.

You can do all your ridicule and insults if you feel good, but that will not change you made that false accusation.

It doesnt really matter to me because the internet is full of that kind of stuff. Even here. I am telling you because you just reiterated it.

 

[Valjean]

Your link is speaking about bad breath and how it affects some health issues. That does not answer my question on your benchmark of a perfect design for you to measure a bad design.
What is a perfect design of a human being that you measure your "bad design" against

Perfect design? Hard to say, but a first year medical or engineering student could design a better anatomy and physiology.
Out A&P is Jerry-rigged. It's an adaptation of adaptations. Nature can't start from scratch, it has to work with what already exists, making tweaks and modifications. We're stuck with a back "designed for a quadruped and imperfectly modified for a biped. Our eyes are a poor design, but we're stuck with a major flaw, too ensconced to redesign; and our cardiac circulation leaves a lot to be desired.
Top 10 Design Flaws in the Human Body
Human Flaws Demonstrate Evolution, Not Intelligent Design
8 Biggest Design Flaws in the Human Body™

 

[firedragon]

Perfect design? Hard to say, but a first year medical or engineering student could design a better anatomy and physiology.
Out A&P is Jerry-rigged. It's an adaptation of adaptations. Nature can't start from scratch, it has to work with what already exists, making tweaks and modifications. We're stuck with a back "designed for a quadruped and imperfectly modified for a biped. Our eyes are a poor design, but we're stuck with a major flaw, too ensconced to redesign; and our cardiac circulation leaves a lot to be desired.
Top 10 Design Flaws in the Human Body
Human Flaws Demonstrate Evolution, Not Intelligent Design
8 Biggest Design Flaws in the Human Body™

• To speak of flaws, you have to give the benchmark. So give that benchmark.
• You have created a false dichotomy following internet based evangelism of some atheists putting evolution and God on each side. Thats an intentionally created trick for ease of use like the cut and paste you have provided.
• No one proposed intelligent design here, so that's a strawman argument.
• Following evolution, if you think this is a flaw, then you have to put an end to evolution right now.

If you propose its a flawed design, teach what is the perfect design. Otherwise its just a wish you have. A prayer. An ought to have been is a theological response, and atheistic philosophers have spoken of that.

 

[Valjean]

• To speak of flaws, you have to give the benchmark. So give that benchmark.
• You have created a false dichotomy following internet based evangelism of some atheists putting evolution and God on each side. Thats an intentionally created trick for ease of use like the cut and paste you have provided.
• No one proposed intelligent design here, so that's a strawman argument.
• Following evolution, if you think this is a flaw, then you have to put an end to evolution right now.

If you propose its a flawed design, teach what is the perfect design. Otherwise its just a wish you have. A prayer. An ought to have been is a theological response, and atheistic philosophers have spoken of that.

I'm not an engineer, but a better design for a vertical, weight-bearing spine would probably be pretty simple. Some collateral circulation in the heart wouldn't be too complicated. Cephalopod retinas are properly designed. Mammalian retinas are backwards. Human pharynges create a choking hazard. Other animals don't have this problem.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not an engineer, but a better design for a vertical, weight-bearing spine would probably be pretty simple. Some collateral circulation in the heart wouldn't be too complicated. Cephalopod retinas are properly designed. Mammalian retinas are backwards. Human pharynges create a choking hazard. Other animals don't have this problem.

So whats the perfect design of a human?

 

[John53]

Yes you did John. You said, that I reduced your cancer and other diseases to "bad breath".

Incorrect. I said you didn't address the evidence I included other than passing it off as bad breath.

So unless you can provide that post I claimed that, it was just made up.

Already done it but you chopped it out. In fact I provided you with 2 posts where you did it but here goes again.

What you should understand is that you are making a wish for yourself and bad breath not being one of your wishes for yourself

Your link is speaking about bad breath and how it affects some health issues.

There you go.

You can do all your ridicule and insults if you feel good, but that will not change you made that false accusation.

And you can chop posts up as much as you like but it's not so hard to scroll back to find the evidence.

It doesnt really matter to me because the internet is full of that kind of stuff. Even here. I am telling you because you just reiterated it.

Often it is deserved.

 

[firedragon]

Incorrect. I said you didn't address the evidence I included other than passing it off as bad breath.

That was your comment John.

 

[John53]

View attachment 61986

That was your comment John.

Exactly, the evidence.... cancer and heart disease are in the link which is the evidence. If you read that as me claiming you said cancer is bad breath then that's on you. And once again you chop and ignore the evidence I showed of you stating the link was about bad breath in two separate posts. Your tactics are noted and will be avoided in future, I prefer friendly adult discussions.

 

[PruePhillip]

'Maybe. We dont know, and maybe there's a limited spectrum of knowledge that we ever can
understand.'
.

So let's say the universe created itself. This raises philosophical issue rathers than religious one for me.
Science gives us cause and effect - no miracles.
A universe which just popped into existance, sans space, time, energy, physical laws, mathematics etc.
is conceptually impossible to me. That doesn't mean its impossible, it just means it's impossible for me
to accept. YOU CREATE YOURSELF, and do so WITHOUT THE TOOLS and FOR NO REASON and
with NO CONSCIOUSNESS.