Tennessee sees new step in wave of anti-Trans bills

[Subduction Zone]

I'll pose it again. If he doesn't respond, perhaps you could "forward it".

Sorry, I can't do that either. He seems to have me on ignore too since we had a run in on a creationism debate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is just a very silly argument. There's basically no difference in the facilities beside the occasional inclusion of urinals. They serve the same function with the same basic plumbing. The reason the rooms are separate is for matters of personal privacy, not because of "design". Don't be absurd.

There many single occupant unisex restrooms here. You've seen one you've seen them all.
I've also cleaned bathrooms. A toilet is a toilet is a toilet.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Subjective personal beliefs are the basis for lots of public policies, such as religion and cultural identity, and gender has always been subjective.

No - religion and culture are not public policy.

Public policy refers to social laws.

Like the argument of whether or not it should be legal for a biological man to use the women's restroom.

I have no idea what toilets you use, but the ones I tend to see in men's restrooms are just the same as any other.

I said "restroom" - not "toilet" - the room itself is designed and intended for use by biological men. It is for men to relive themselves in privacy.

Biological men - generally - don't like to expose themselves to members of the opposite sex (or anyone). It makes them uncomfortable.

Having a strange woman in close proximity while relieving oneself would make them uncomfortable.

B the way - your saying this completely destroys your own argument - because if both facilities offer all the same features - then why can't transpeople just use the restrooms that correspond to their biological sex?

If it's "just the same as any other" - then where is the problem? Is it because they would feel uncomfortable doing so?

Yet - that is how the majority of the men and women using the restroom would feel if a member of the opposite sex entered their restroom.

If it's all the same anyway - why can't they just use the bathroom designed and intended for their use?

You can't have it both ways.

Either the facilities are different or they are exactly the same.

See above.

You "see above".

This is just a very silly argument.

No - claiming that it's of super high importance that the transpeople get to use the restroom they want while also arguing that there is no difference between the facilities are silly things to say.

They are two inconsistent arguments.

Because if there is no difference between the two facilities - then the transpeople should take no issue using the one that reflects their biological sex.

Yet - if there is a significant difference between the two facilities - then it proves me right - that there is a difference when a man or woman enters one or the other.

So - basically - you have no argument either way. You are screwed.

There's basically no difference in the facilities beside the occasional inclusion of urinals. They serve the same function with the same basic plumbing. The reason the rooms are separate is for matters of personal privacy, not because of "design". Don't be absurd.

HAHAHAH. Which is it? HAHAHAH

Yes they do. You have absolutely no moral or legal basis to say that anybody doesn't have that right.

Sure I do - they are not members of the sex with which they are claiming membership.

That is all that is needed.

No it isn't. Gender has always been a matter of personal identity, and people have always been granted access based on identification to gendered spaces. Again, no procedure of genital examinations has ever been the standard required to access men's or women's bathrooms.

No - the idea of "gender" being different than biological sex is a very new concept began by John Money back in the 1950s.

His research involved abusing these two children. Two brothers if I'm not mistaken. He forced them to commit sexual acts with each other. One played the role of the woman. Both later committed suicide. It's really sad.

There has never needed to be any examinations or any such standards because there has never been any need. This is a new phenomenon. I new kind of crazy.

Throughout all of human history men were men and women were women. There never was any need for verification.

So, do you propose genital examinations for anyone entering a gendered bathroom? Because that is literally the only way to enforce that.

I'm pretty sure the people inside would notice and report the individual afterwards.

It's no different than it has always been.

Also, how is it fair to force a minority of women to use men's restrooms, and vice versa, against their will?

First off - no one is being forced to use any public restroom. No one has to use a public restroom.

They are restrooms for the public and their who can use which is set by public policy - yet no one is forcing anyone to use them.

So - I don't understand this argument of "forcing" anyone "against their will" to use any restroom.

Not only that - but there are droves of unisex restrooms - as well as their own private restrooms at their homes that they are free to use.

Finally - a biological man who believes they are a woman is still a biological man - and should therefore use the restroom designed and intended for use by biological men.

It really is that simple.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You seem to have ignored my question to you...


If a restaurant has two bathrooms - Men's and Women's, where do you believe Republican Caitlyn Jenner should go to pee?

Just your opinion.

Didn't ignore it. First time seeing it. I'm picking the comments to reply to at random.

Caitlyn Jenner is a biological man and should therefore use the men's restroom.

I don't know why his political party should matter.

Perhaps they give free passes to people in the Democratic Party - they are free to lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder - but not so the Republicans.

Man - those guys can't get away with sneezing.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It is true. We can even see it in serial killers.

Do you watch anime?

There is this one that is called "Psycho-Pass" - I think.

I only saw a few episodes - but basically society is based on this technology that scans the human brain. It's kinda like in Minority Report when Tom Cruise was walking in the mall and all the billboards and advertisements were scanning his retinas and trying to get him to buy stuff.

So - there are these electronic checkpoints everywhere that are scanning everyone's brains and if you are "off" - don't fall within a predetermined range - police come and take you away. You are considered a psycho - even if you haven't done anything - and you are made a ward of the State and imprisoned.

This conversation reminded me of that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you watch anime?

No.

You are considered a psycho - even if you haven't done anything - and you are made a ward of the State and imprisoned.

Probably not a good idea to use fictitious media when discussing such subjects with someone with schooling and professional experience in the field. It's not a good look.
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientists-studied-brains-more-800-prisoners-heres-what-they-found

Examining brain scans of more than 800 incarcerated men, new research co-authored by a leading University of Chicago neuroscientist found that individuals who had committed or attempted homicide had reduced gray matter when compared to those involved in other offenses. Those reductions were especially apparent in regions of the brain associated with emotional processing, behavioral control and social cognition.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/you-me-psychology/202011/are-serial-killers-born-or-made

‘They all had one thing in common,' says Fallon, 'a loss of function in the orbital cortex, above the eyes, which is the circuit that codes for ethics, morality, conscience and when that’s gone, or doesn’t develop, not only does a person have no sense of morality but also has little control over their impulses.’

This isn't science fiction. This is real life. So much of us really is determined by our brain. I can also go into detail how the brains of autistic people are different. How men and women have different brains. Gender identity is no different.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What is the problem with you americans? Most restrooms in France are mixed.

View attachment 50705


No one bothers either way

Heh...I had to get used to the unisex bathrooms when I was working in Sweden (common in most bars and restaurants in my experience).
Not that it worried me, or seemed like a big deal at all, but on one occasion I might have left the cubicle a wee bit stinkier than when I entered, and there was a smoking hot young Swedish lady waiting outside. What does a gentleman do on such occasions? Warn her? Blame a previous occupant? Light a match?

This was the single biggest issue with unisex bathrooms in my experience. Oh, the horror.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It saves space for businesses and shortens lines.

It shortens SOME lines...*laughs*
But yes, that seems like a simple solution.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

No.

Probably not a good idea to use fictitious media when discussing such subjects with someone with schooling and professional experience in the field. It's not a good look.

I wasn't making an argument - I was merely stating this what you said reminded me of that show.

This isn't science fiction. This is real life. So much of us really is determined by our brain. I can also go into detail how the brains of autistic people are different. How men and women have different brains. Gender identity is no different.

Yeah - you see - I don't find this to be evidence that we can determine a psycho killer.

How do we not know that this "[reduction] in gray matter" did not happen until after they committed these acts?

What if it is the thoughts we entertain - the thing that occupy our minds - what we focus on and do that causes these changes - rather than the other way around?

Men and women do have different brains - which proves that a man cannot become a woman and vice versa. Right?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah - you see - I don't find this to be evidence that we can determine a psycho killer.

Not everyone with these brain abnormalities is a serial killer, true, but all serial killers have it. To our best understanding, this brain potential mixed with an especially abusive childhood makes a serial killer.
Amd we know these parts of the brain deal with things like empathy. To a serial killer, even their first kill is not how you or I would experience it. We would have much guilt amd remorse, and likely even be emotionally disturbed if the kill was in self defense. A serial killer feels no empathy, guilt, or remorse.

Men and women do have different brains - which proves that a man cannot become a woman and vice versa. Right

The brains of a transgender person looks far more like the brain of their identified sex than their birth sex. This is even without hormone treatment.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No - religion and culture are not public policy.

Public policy refers to social laws.

You mean like laws regarding the respect of religion and culture?

Like the argument of whether or not it should be legal for a biological man to use the women's restroom.

Which is a very silly argument, because it is both discriminatory and unenforceable.

I said "restroom" - not "toilet" - the room itself is designed and intended for use by biological men. It is for men to relive themselves in privacy.

Agreed. For men to relieve themselves in privacy.

All men. The gender.

Biological men - generally - don't like to expose themselves to members of the opposite sex (or anyone). It makes them uncomfortable.

Having a strange woman in close proximity while relieving oneself would make them uncomfortable.

Then why do you believe it's okay to force women to use men's restrooms?

B the way - your saying this completely destroys your own argument - because if both facilities offer all the same features - then why can't transpeople just use the restrooms that correspond to their biological sex?

Because bathrooms don't differentiate based on biological sex. They differentiate based on gender.

If it's "just the same as any other" - then where is the problem? Is it because they would feel uncomfortable doing so?

Because, as I said, it's about privacy - not the facilities. To borrow your vernacular - "generally, trans women don't like to expose themselves to the opposite gender".

Yet - that is how the majority of the men and women using the restroom would feel if a member of the opposite sex entered their restroom.

Baseless assumption.

Also demonstrably false:

The above people are a trans woman and trans man, respectively. Due to the laws in their local area, they are forced to use bathrooms that do not match their gender. According to you, people should not be made uncomfortable by them because their "sex" is appropriate. Do you seriously believe that?

If it's all the same anyway - why can't they just use the bathroom designed and intended for their use?

They want to. Trans women want to use the women's bathroom and trans men want to use the men's bathroom. You are the one who wants to force them not to.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the facilities are different or they are exactly the same.

I really don't feel like you've paid much attention to my argument (or, apparently, your own for that matter).

YOU are the one saying they are "designed" different. I am the one saying they are the same, they are only separate for purposes of privacy.

No - claiming that it's of super high importance that the transpeople get to use the restroom they want while also arguing that there is no difference between the facilities are silly things to say.

You seem very hung up on a very basic fact, and yet you admit that the reason they are separate is for reasons of privacy. You're clearly being a bit silly here.

They are two inconsistent arguments.

I am not sure you are understanding my argument. YOU are the one arguing that there is a difference in the "design" of the toilet that means they are more suited for use with one biological sex than the other. Now, you are retreating from that and admitting that they are, in fact, functionally identical. Which is it?

Because if there is no difference between the two facilities - then the transpeople should take no issue using the one that reflects their biological sex.

Except there is a problem - those facilities contain people they are - "generally" - less comfortable exposing themselves to.

Yet - if there is a significant difference between the two facilities - then it proves me right - that there is a difference when a man or woman enters one or the other.

So - basically - you have no argument either way. You are screwed.

HAHAHAH. Which is it? HAHAHAH

Wow.

Are you serious?

Not a great time to try out your Joker impression. Still, 7/10.

No - the idea of "gender" being different than biological sex is a very new concept began by John Money back in the 1950s.

Which is when the word "gender" started to be used and applied to people as sociological phenomenon. Gender was never used to refer to biological sex.

There has never needed to be any examinations or any such standards because there has never been any need. This is a new phenomenon. I new kind of crazy.

Throughout all of human history men were men and women were women. There never was any need for verification.

Oh dear. Somebody doesn't know their history. Sex and sexuality have been fluid in countless societies and cultures throughout history.

I'm pretty sure the people inside would notice and report the individual afterwards.

Like in the above instances, which you would argue would be wrong.

In any case, this doesn't help. Once a person has been reported, how do you then determine whether or not the reported individual is, in fact, biologically male or female, and has therefore used the "inappropriate" bathroom? Run through the scenario in your head, and tell me at what point it is okay to violate that person's privacy (if not outright sexually assault them) in the interest of public safety.

It's no different than it has always been.

Agreed. If people act inappropriately in a bathroom, they will be reported.

So what is the issue with trans people using them? Unless you believe that simply BEING transgender means you are automatically being inappropriate, which is obviously very wrong and bigoted.

First off - no one is being forced to use any public restroom. No one has to use a public restroom.

Because everybody carries a colostomy bag with them everywhere they go in case of emergencies, right?

They are restrooms for the public and their who can use which is set by public policy - yet no one is forcing anyone to use them.

Your deliberate misunderstanding of language is not encouraging.

So - I don't understand this argument of "forcing" anyone "against their will" to use any restroom.

Yes you do. Stop being obtuse.

Not only that - but there are droves of unisex restrooms - as well as their own private restrooms at their homes that they are free to use.

But not everywhere has those, and public restrooms are open to the public (hence the name) meaning they are free to use them. So we need to allow them access.

Finally - a biological man who believes they are a woman is still a biological man - and should therefore use the restroom designed and intended for use by biological men.

It really is that simple.

I have never facepalmed so hard.

After telling me at length how my argument "fails" because the facilities are exactly the same, you then make the argument that they are "DESIGNED" differently again.

Do you not get that the contradiction in this argument is yours? YOU are the one arguing that one bathroom is designed for "biological men", and yet you admit that the facilities are identical. According to YOU, if I have two identical rooms with a toilet in each, and I slap a sign on one that says "female" and a sign on the other that says "male", that means that they are somehow "designed for the respective biological sexes". And yet you admit that the facilities are FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL and the only reason men use men's and women use women's is for reasons of privacy, which is the argument I have been making. Your argument makes no sense.

And you still have yet to explain how to enforce sexually-segregated public bathrooms, instead relying on the public to "report people". And yet, as I have demonstrated above, not all trans people wear a big sign over their head saying "trans", so this is also unenforceable.

Just admit that you're creeped out by trans people and you don't like the idea of them having access to public spaces already. These arguments aren't hiding it as well as you think.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just admit that you're creeped out by trans people and you don't like the idea of them having access to public spaces already.

I've had a lot of fun when those sorts here start hitting on me. The word alone sends shivers and trembles down their spine and churns their stomachs, declare trans people freak them out, and next thing I know I'm getting a "hey sexy" PM from them.

 

[ChristineM]

I've had a lot of fun when those sorts here start hitting on me. The word alone sends shivers and trembles down their spine and churns their stomachs, declare trans people freak them out, and next thing I know I'm getting a "hey sexy" PM from them.

I report PMs like that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I report PMs like that.

I probably should, but I get such a perverse fun from it.

 

[ecco]

Caitlyn Jenner is a biological man and should therefore use the men's restroom.

How would you feel if a person who looks like and dresses like a woman walks into the public men's room where you want to pee. You have no way of knowing if this person is a biological man or woman.

How would you feel if a person who looks like and dresses like a man walks into the public woman's room where your daughter or wife went to pee. You have no way of knowing if this person is a biological man or woman.

Would you call the police to have them investigate?

I don't know why his political party should matter.

Perhaps they give free passes to people in the Democratic Party - they are free to lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder - but not so the Republicans.

I mentioned Jenner's political party because she, like you, is a Republican. She believes she should use the woman's restroom.

I didn't mention it to give you an excuse to start accusing Dems of being murderers while putting halos on your fellow Repubs.

 

[ecco]

Do you watch anime?

There is this one that is called "Psycho-Pass" - I think.

I only saw a few episodes

Is this where you get your information? Watching anime? That might explain a lot.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps they give free passes to people in the Democratic Party - they are free to lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder - but not so the Republicans.

She ran here in the recent recall election as a Republican.
Try again.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is this where you get your information? Watching anime? That might explain a lot.

 

[Kooky]

Public policy refers to social laws.

As opposed to antisocial laws?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

She ran here in the recent recall election as a Republican.
Try again.

You did not understand my post.

I claimed that his being a Republican does not matter.

That was when I made my joke about Democrats getting away with everything.

I did not claim that Jenner was a Democrat.

You just didn't understand my comment.