dust1n
Zindīq
Quite simply, what is being left out here, is that his concern is not stopping ISIS from doing atrocities, just stop the potential of them doing atrocities in Europe.
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Terror attacks in Paris.
- Thread starter Saint Frankenstein
- Start date
Quite simply, what is being left out here, is that his concern is not stopping ISIS from doing atrocities, just stop the potential of them doing atrocities in Europe.
dust1n
Zindīq
Don't know if you'd call Indonesia a peaceful place for anyone to live.
It would be like calling Nazi Germany a peaceful place to live 50 years after WW2 had won, and was supported by the America the whole time. Slightly less death rate though. In the mid-60's, America and Britain helped aid and support a purge of "communists," which roughly resulted in the death of a million people.
It seems like there is a genocide in everything the Dutch touched less than a century ago.
Goes to show that bad foreign policy decisions never go away.
dust1n
Zindīq
American blood has already been massacred multiple times this year.
dust1n
Zindīq
Across Indonesia, Muslim minorities, including Ahmadiyah, Shia and Sufi, as well as Catholic and Protestant groups, are targets of harassment, intimidation, threats and, increasingly, acts of mob violence.
The perpetrators are Sunni Islamist militant groups such as the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI).
They mobilise gangs that swarm minority houses of worship. The groups’ leaders justify such thuggery as attacks against “infidels” and “blasphemers”...
Escalation in reported cases of religious violence against minorities in Indonesia:
YEAR CASES
2007 91
2008 257
2009 181
2010 216
2011 242
2012 264
2013 220
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/18/voting-against-indonesias-religious-intolerance
But that being said, given those numbers, just look at how many people got shot in America this year, just, for no particular reason. That being said, places where violence occurs is probably multi-faceted. No one can really point at Indonesia and say, see, the Muslims are attacking churches! Yeah, we also blatantly funded a gang state to power, in order to achieve killing all the communists and more or less people associated with them.
Many factors.
Aset's Flames
Viperine Asetian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/13/shootings-reported-in-eastern-paris-live
- At least 18 people reported to have been killed in French capital
- Shootouts at concert hall, now the scene of a hostage situation, and restaurant
- Explosions outside France v Germany game at Stade de France
They are cowards for striking out at the innocent and deserve the fires of justice!
Crypto2015
Active Member
I didn't cherry pick anything and I can prove it using the most renowned Islamic scholars. If you want to try and prove that the Bible is an evil book, please go ahead. I'll actually enjoy such an opportunity to refute your arguments.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Both holy texts have good and bad parts. What if I were to tell you that Muslims treat the bad parts of the Quran as literally as Christians treat the Levitican Laws?
Crypto2015
Active Member
I take Leviticus as literally as it can be taken, but I would never stone anyone or kill anyone. Do you know why? Because the New Testament says that the Law of Moses is eternal as a spiritual teaching, but temporary as a legal code. Furthermore, the law of Moses was only meant to be applied in Israel and never by Christians. When Jesus came, he defended women that had to be stoned according to the law of Moses. That's because Jesus came to bring a message that trumps the legal aspects of the law of Moses, although finding support in the spiritual and prophetic content of the law of Moses. The Qur'an rejects the message of Jesus and provides open-ended commands to attack the non-Muslims until the end of times. There is nothing of the sort in the Bible.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
And the Bible calls for Fascism and Genocide in Revelation. Like I said, both have good and bad parts.
Crypto2015
Active Member
Completely false. Provide some evidence for what you are saying.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Rev 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
So here we have a bunch of different types of people. We already know that the Bible considered homosexuality to be sexually immoral, as well as though who have sex before marriage.
The vile, of course, is a nondescript word. Who are the vile? Probably the gays again, I suspect.
Those who practice magic arts. So that means pagans, etc. Nonchristians, basically.
And the unbelievers.
What do all of these people have in common? They're all people with a different point of view. People of different beliefs, and walks of life. People who think differently.
If you're going to kill everyone who thinks differently to you, then this is fascism. If you're going to kill all of the homosexuals (as Hitler tried) then this is Genocide.
The Second Death, basically, is a holocaust.
But let's not sidetrack the thread. We can discuss it elsewhere if you wish.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
No. A LOT
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Well I guess we should just let them carry on then. Beheadings for everyone!
Thanks for only posting half of my comment though. That's very honest of you.
And when France goes to war with Syria and/or ISIS do the French roam the streets with AK-47s and suicide vests intentionally looking for innocent civilians to blow to smithereens? Or do they maybe attack military sites and bases instead.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Or maybe they'll be happy that they don't have to grow up in a hellhole anymore.
Crypto2015
Active Member
Rev 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
So here we have a bunch of different types of people. We already know that the Bible considered homosexuality to be sexually immoral, as well as though who have sex before marriage.
The vile, of course, is a nondescript word. Who are the vile? Probably the gays again, I suspect.
Those who practice magic arts. So that means pagans, etc. Nonchristians, basically.
And the unbelievers.
What do all of these people have in common? They're all people with a different point of view. People of different beliefs, and walks of life. People who think differently.
If you're going to kill everyone who thinks differently to you, then this is fascism. If you're going to kill all of the homosexuals (as Hitler tried) then this is Genocide.
The Second Death, basically, is a holocaust.
But let's not sidetrack the thread. We can discuss it elsewhere if you wish.
So, your claim is that Christianity encourages people to commit genocide and to be intolerant. If you are right, we will find verses commanding Christians to kill and to persecute those who are not Christians. You cited the following passage:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 21:1-8)
Now it is evident from this passage that these people are going to be thrown into the lake of fire on Judgement Day. It is not talking of something that will happen on this Earth, since the passage says "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth". Who is going to throw these people into the lake of fire? Are the Christians going to do it? We find the answer in this other passage:
"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." (Revelation 19:11-21)
Anyone with a basic knowledge of Christian theology can understand that the one who is throwing the Antichrist, the false prophet, the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, the sexually immoral, and others into the lake of fire is Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who will judge the world and throw people into hell. Nowhere in these passages we find a verse commanding Christians to slain people or to be intolerant. On the contrary, the Bible teaches us the following:
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:44-45)
"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:14-21)
I could cite many other passages like this one. So, we must conclude that (1) the Bible does not instruct people to kill other people and (2) the Bible does not teach people to be fascist or intolerant. On the contrary, the Bible teaches people to love even their enemies and never to avenge themselves.
Do you want to see an example of an ideology that teaches genocide? Here you have
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad]saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad](may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6983:
Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6984:
Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.
Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
They might be happy to grow up in a place where their children can be safe and where they don't have to live in fear of evil ******** every day of their lives.You think they'll be happy to grow up in this instead?
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
But they're not safe in these countries. They're in danger from disease, poverty, starvation, etc. All of the usual things that happen when a country's infrastructure collapses because another country turned it into a pile of rubble. They may not be in danger of dying from terrorism, but they're still in danger of dying from everything else.