That Wacky.....no....Demented United Arab Emirates

[Bismillah]

that's threatening jail time for reporting rape.

Disagree, that's threatening jail time for admitting to consensual sex (which she did). She claimed later that she was raped (perhaps to avoid jail time for consensual sex no one knows) but her evidence was obviously not there.

Moral of the story: If you are raped do not report to the police that you had consensual sex.

 

[Shermana]

You know what, you have a point. As has Falvlun in the post right after yours.

Rape is indeed hard to tell apart from consensual sex. It helps if indications of violence exist, but not all rape is violent.

It does often end up as a little more challenge between the words of the accuser and accused. It may be pretty arbitrary.

It seems to me that how likely a system is to believe a woman who claims to be raped, and how seriously the evidence is considered, tell quite a bit about how much that society respects women.

And in this case, where is the evidence? And why doesn't the evidence look like it was black-out-consentual-sex?

 

[Shermana]

Do you think that it is a good thing to threaten woman with jail time for reporting rapes that they cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt? Don't you think that will likely result in an under-reporting of rape, and give much more power to would-be rapers?

I didn't say it was. But how are we to determine who is raped especially when there is so much false and disproven rape cases, especially in cases where heavy drinking is involved? Also, there's a question of what it means to be "Beyond a shadow of a doubt". I think it's more like "beyond reasonable doubt".

I have to wonder just how much of a rarity cases like the following are:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lse-rape-allegations-ex-boyfriends-years.html

 

[freethinker44]

The drunk lady was in her boss room to play playstation,i guess.

It doesn't matter what she was there for, if she didn't consent to sex she was raped. She could be sitting naked on his bed with her legs spread wide open and guess what, still rape if she doesn't consent.

She could consent to sex, orgasm before he does and then tell him to stop, and if he refuses, that's rape although an completely dick move on her part but rape none the less.

 

[Shermana]

It doesn't matter what she was there for, if she didn't consent to sex she was raped. She could be sitting naked on his bed with her legs spread wide open and guess what, still rape if she doesn't consent.

She could consent to sex, orgasm before he does and then tell him to stop, and if he refuses, that's rape although an completely dick move on her part but rape none the less.

So do you believe drunken sex is non-consentual if the person blacked out and doesn't remember what happened?

 

[freethinker44]

So do you believe drunken sex is non-consentual if the person blacked out and doesn't remember what happened?

Sure do.

 

[Aquitaine]

So do you believe drunken sex is non-consentual if the person blacked out and doesn't remember what happened?

If the person has blacked out, then they are unconscious - how on Earth can there be any consent there? Hell, even being heavily intoxicated but conscious means the person cannot properly consent.

 

[Shermana]

Sure do.

Okay, so you're saying that all people who have sex with a girl while she's drunk should be thrown into prison for a long time.

By all means, please voice your opinion on the following thread, I'd like to see how that turns out.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/149631-drunken-consent.html

 

[Shermana]

If the person has blacked out, then they are unconscious - how on Earth can there be any consent there? Hell, even being heavily intoxicated but conscious means the person cannot properly consent.

How do you get to determine who is blacked out? I don't think you understand what "Blacked out" means. And you too I would like to see your response on this thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/149631-drunken-consent.html

 

[Shermana]

For the record, in the USA, the law differs based on the State.

In New York for example, the only way Drunk sex counts as rape is if the person was forced to drink or consume a drug that they did not willfully ingest on their accord. So does this mean that the State of New York has legalized Rape? Or is it only rape when the state determines it's such like in Kansas where even a slight drop of alcohol can be used as fuel for a rape prosecution if it's "reasonably apparent" that they were drunk?

 

[Bismillah]

Okay, so you're saying that all people who have sex with a girl while she's drunk should be thrown into prison for a long time.

Also, forgive me if I am being slow, does this mean that when two drunk people have sex it is always the male that falls under the possibility of rape? Why can't the female be just as guilty?

 

[freethinker44]

Okay, so you're saying that all people who have sex with a girl while she's drunk should be thrown into prison for a long time.

By all means, please voice your opinion on the following thread, I'd like to see how that turns out.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/149631-drunken-consent.html

Your attempting to create a strawman argument here. We weren't talking about someone who was just drunk, we were talking about someone who is black-out drunk. There is a substantial difference.

This is your original quote I responded to:

So do you believe drunken sex is non-consentual if the person blacked out and doesn't remember what happened?

And to answer that; yes, not only do I think it is non-consentual, I think if someone is drunk enough to be in a black-out state then they are not capable of giving consent even if they are conscious and say yes.

To respond to your strawman attempt, however, I don't think someone who is merely drunk is incapable of giving consent. But once they cross the threshold from drunk to drunken stupor, it's rape.

Potential rapist: "But sometimes you can't always tell when they are just drunk or passed into drunken stupor."

Intelligent person: "If you think there is even the smallest chance that they might be remotely close to being too drunk, just assume they are."

 

[freethinker44]

For the record, in the USA, the law differs based on the State.

In New York for example, the only way Drunk sex counts as rape is if the person was forced to drink or consume a drug that they did not willfully ingest on their accord. So does this mean that the State of New York has legalized Rape? Or is it only rape when the state determines it's such like in Kansas where even a slight drop of alcohol can be used as fuel for a rape prosecution if it's "reasonably apparent" that they were drunk?

If that's true, yes, New York legalized rape. Kansas has the much more sensible law in this case.

 

[Shermana]

Okay, please explain how to determine who is black-out drunk and who is just having-a really-good-time-drunk. Where is the fine line that can be "reasonably demonstrated", especially when there is little way of proving this evidence to a court of law such as this case?

 

[freethinker44]

Okay, please explain how to determine who is black-out drunk and who is just having-a really-good-time-drunk. Where is the fine line that can be "reasonably demonstrated", especially when there is little way of proving this evidence to a court of law such as this case?

Damn I'm good. Predicted your response and answered it before you even knew you were going to say it.

Potential rapist: "But sometimes you can't always tell when they are just drunk or passed into drunken stupor."

Intelligent person: "If you think there is even the smallest chance that they might be remotely close to being too drunk, just assume they are."

You probably got thrown off because I had a "potential rapist" asking how to determine when someone is too drunk and you probably thought it didn't apply to you because you don't consider yourself a potential rapist, but seriously, if you have to ask... a good hard look at your morality and ethics might not be a bad idea.

 

[Shermana]

So basically your response is to call me a potential rapist, got it.

 

[freethinker44]

So basically your response is to call me a potential rapist, got it.

I'm not calling you anything, I set it up and you walked right into it. I said "this is what a potential rapist would say" and right on cue you said it.

But seriously, if your response is "I can't tell how drunk she is so I'm just going to do it anyways" then yes, you are potential rapist. Sorry if that is offensive but I call them like I see them.

 

[Shermana]

I'm not calling you anything, I set it up and you walked right into it. I said "this is what a potential rapist would say" and right on cue you said it.

But seriously, if your response is "I can't tell how drunk she is so I'm just going to do it anyways" then yes, you are potential rapist. Sorry if that is offensive but I call them like I see them.

I wouldn't do it. I'm a virgin for one thing and I've turned down more than a few approaches, drunken or not. Even when I'm drunk. I've wanted to beat someone up for taking advantage of a friend while she was blacked out but couldn't due to various opinions on her consent, not to mention the guy was over 6'5.

I'm talking about when it comes to legal cases. Like this one. The personal and social implications are up to the individual community and culture.

 

[Assad91]

And this be among the reasons why alcohol should be illegal

 

[Aquitaine]

How do you get to determine who is blacked out? I don't think you understand what "Blacked out" means. And you too I would like to see your response on this thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/149631-drunken-consent.html

To my knowledge, being "blacked-out" means being unconscious. It should be fairly easy for one to determine whether another person has lost consciousness.

All I'm saying is, that having sex with an unconscious person is not cool, because continual consent cannot be given.
Also with someone heavily intoxicated, it could very-well be that the person is so drunk that it becomes unethical to have sex with him/her, for similar reasons.