The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.

[shunyadragon]

You will not "conclude specifically"?

What you will do, however, is instructive, not to mention intellectually disingenuous. You scan for a reference that coheres with your mantra and find (glory be) the abstract to Smith's Canaanite Backgrounds to Psalms, which you proceed to quote in full. Good for you! (FWIW, I rather like Smith.)

What I find noteworthy, however, is not your exercise in selection bias, but

• that you limit your quote to the readily accessible abstract, suggesting that you have yet to actually read the article, and
• that you reference only the abstract of chapter 3, while silently passing over (a) chapter 2: Mesopotamian Parallels to the Psalms, and (b) chapter 4: Egyptian Backgrounds to the Psalms.

So, what are we left with? The amazing realization that a curated collection, presumably aimed at an audience, reflects the worldview and genres common to that audience, and to a landmass stretching from Egypt to Syria and beyond. Just brilliant.\

It is good you brought up the Mesopotamian and Egyptian influence. I previously described the Mesopotamian influence in the evolution of the Pentateuch from Sumerian and Babylonian writings. Yes, the Egyptian influence is also a factor, because of the direct Egyptian influence in the Levant through much of its history, Some of earliest Proto-Hebrew texts are alphabetic in nature related to the earlier first alphabetic text found in Egypt,

I was emphasizing the Canaanite/Phoenician influence on the Psalms because I feel it is dominant due to the fact that the Hebrew tribes were Canaanite tribes, and their linguistic, cultural and religious influence of the Canaanites is dominant. The Mesopotamian influence on Hebrews is two sources: (1) Via the Mesopotamian texts that influenced the Canaanite/ Ugarit tests, and some texts found in the Ugarit libraries were in Mesopotamian languages. (2) The Hebrews were greatly influenced by the Assyrians during the exile.

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

And then, as if to add comic relief to this reveal, you graciously offer ...

If the Hebrews had a written language it would be Phoenician/Canaanite, but before that 11th/10th centuries they apparently did not use it much if at all. It is possible the priests were likely literate in other languages​

I just love your "it is possible the priests were likely," if only because it posits a priestly class sustained by a nomadic kingdom while being seemingly oblivious to the anything approaching a scribal class, despite the fact that such a class was ubiquitous throughout the Ancient Near East. Oh, well ... you would benefit from reading Podany's Weavers, Scribes and Kings.

But what's the point? Let's assume that your mantra is absolute truth, i.e., that there was no written Hebrew language before Egypt's decline. Therefore?

Your contributions are appreciated, but your negative sarcasm is not.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes .. I am well familiar with mesopotamian history 3000 BC to 0. In particular the levant .. the Zedek fellow mentioned a Phonecian God .. Patron God of Jerusalem .. .. my nick the name of the uniter of the city states in mesopotamia into the worlds first empire .. Balkanized ..

Israelites are Canaanites .. the Hebrew Language a Canaanite Dialect .. and although the "Hebrews" have Canaanite Gods .. we don't see YHWH among the Canaanite Gods .. and he does not come along until the Hebrews turn into Israelites ... but 100% agree that the Psalms - those repeating the Ba-al cycle motifs .. the battle with the Sea Monster and such go back much further than 900 BC .. the Ugarit stuff 13-1400BC .. Old ..

And according to the Bible Jerusalem was Canaanite ~1800 BC ---

We do see YHWH among the Canaanite Gods as God of Fire and Metallurgy

Yahweh

Yahweh is the name of the state god of the ancient Kingdom of Israel and, later, the Kingdom of Judah. His name is composed of four Hebrew consonants (YHWH, known as the Tetragrammaton) which the prophet...

www.worldhistory.org

Scholar Nissim Amzallag, of Ben-Gurion University, disagrees with the claim that Yahweh's origins are obscure and argues that the deity was originally a god of the forge and patron of metallurgists during the Bronze Age (c. 3500-1200 BCE). Amzallag specifically cites the ancient copper mines of the Timna Valley (in southern Israel), biblical and extra-biblical passages, and similarities of Yahweh to gods of metallurgy in other cultures for support.

Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh.

 

[shunyadragon]

A bit of Aristotelian logic is a necessary, sometimes.
If there was nothing, no kingdom, no state beyond the mountain of Lebanon, the Phoenicians would have conquered it all.

Phoenicians did control much of th eLEvant at one time, but there were too mny Kingdoms and tribs contenfing to control the LEvant for vary long.

They couldn't do that, because there already was a large kingdom, much larger than Phoenicia.
What pushed Tyrians to sail to Africa and found Carthage in 814 BCE, and other colonies in Sardinia and in Sicily?

Who inhabited that land?

In response to who inhabited the Levant. They were Hebrews, Canaanite, Egyptians. Assyrians, Apiru or Hapiru, Hittites in the Northern Levant, Phoenicians. At different times Kingdoms conquered and dominated parts of the the Levant. before 1550 BCE it as the Canaanites, 1550 to 1000 BCE it was the Egyptians, The Hebrews grew in influence and military strength when the Egyptian lost out about 1000 BCE, After the collapse of the Late Bronze age Hebrews gradually established a Kingdom about 900-700 BCE and then the Assyrians conquered most of the Levant. than the Greeks, Hebrews ruled for a while and than the Romans

The following is an interesting well documented academic reference on the origins of the Pentateuch literature.

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

 

[Estro Felino]

In response to who inhabited the Levant. They were Hebrews, Canaanite, Egyptians. Assyrians, Apiru or Hapiru, Phoenicians. At different different Kingdoms conquered and dominated the Levant. before 1550 BCE it as the Canaanites, 1550 to 1000 BCE it was the Egyptians, The Hebrews grew in influence and military strength when the Egyptian lost out about 1000 BCE, After the collapse of the Late Bronze age Hebrews gradually established a Kingdom about 900-600 BCE and then the Assyrians conquered most of the Levant. than the Persians, than the Greeks, Hebrews ruled for a while and than the Romans

The following is an interesting well documented academic reference on the origins of the Pentateuch literature.

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

Pardon me...it's just that I was slightly upset because there are more and more historians like this one who spread very unusual theories, like the one claiming that in the XI century BCE there was no Jewish kingdom .

 

[GoodAttention]

Phoenicians did control much of th eLEvant at one time, but there were too mny Kingdoms and tribs contenfing to control the LEvant for vary long.

In response to who inhabited the Levant. They were Hebrews, Canaanite, Egyptians. Assyrians, Apiru or Hapiru, Hittites in the Northern Levant, Phoenicians. At different times Kingdoms conquered and dominated parts of the the Levant. before 1550 BCE it as the Canaanites, 1550 to 1000 BCE it was the Egyptians, The Hebrews grew in influence and military strength when the Egyptian lost out about 1000 BCE, After the collapse of the Late Bronze age Hebrews gradually established a Kingdom about 900-700 BCE and then the Assyrians conquered most of the Levant. than the Greeks, Hebrews ruled for a while and than the Romans

The following is an interesting well documented academic reference on the origins of the Pentateuch literature.

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

A short question to ask.

There was an earlier comment about a priesthood in Jerusalem described in the scriptures, starting with Melchizedak and ending with Adonizedak when David takes control.

Would this have been a chain of families that would be considered Hebrew?

 

[shunyadragon]

A short question to ask.

There was an earlier comment about a priesthood in Jerusalem described in the scriptures, starting with Melchizedak and ending with Adonizedak when David takes control.

Would this have been a chain of families that would be considered Hebrew?

Yes, chains of priestly and scribal families is common to likely all ancient cultures from the tribe to Kingdoms, and to some extent in modern history of religions including Christianity, Islam, and the history of Chinese culture.

Traditionally the Jewish priesthood is descendent from Aaron called the Aaronic priesthood This family lineage can be traced back by records

 

[GoodAttention]

Yes, chains of priestly and scribal families is common to likely all ancient cultures from the tribe to Kingdoms, and to some extent in modern history of religions including Christianity, Islam, and the history of Chinese culture.

Traditionally the Jewish priesthood is descendent from Aaron called the Aaronic priesthood This family lineage can be traced back by records

Thanks for the reply.

So only the priests descended from Aaron can be considered Hebrew and Jewish?

Meaning the Zedek family in Jerusalem from Abraham to Daviid were neither?

 

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for the reply.

So only the priests descended from Aaron can be considered Hebrew and Jewish?

This is one lineage of Jewish priest, and not necessarily the only one, Since Judaism has Rabbis not necessarily descendent from one of the priestly lineages, Many are descendent from a priestly family like the Cohens. Genetics has documented relationships to priestly families to a large extent.

These are traditional lineages and only documented back to likely the around the the early first century. some may be earlier, but at some point it is traditional and not documented lineage.

Meaning the Zedek family in Jerusalem from Abraham to Daviid were neither?

My computer had problems and I did not complete the post. I have rebooted. Going back very far in antiquity limits that ability to document ancestry.

 

[Sargonski]

We do see YHWH among the Canaanite Gods as God of Fire and Metallurgy

Yahweh

Yahweh is the name of the state god of the ancient Kingdom of Israel and, later, the Kingdom of Judah. His name is composed of four Hebrew consonants (YHWH, known as the Tetragrammaton) which the prophet...

www.worldhistory.org

Scholar Nissim Amzallag, of Ben-Gurion University, disagrees with the claim that Yahweh's origins are obscure and argues that the deity was originally a god of the forge and patron of metallurgists during the Bronze Age (c. 3500-1200 BCE). Amzallag specifically cites the ancient copper mines of the Timna Valley (in southern Israel), biblical and extra-biblical passages, and similarities of Yahweh to gods of metallurgy in other cultures for support.

Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh.

Good work on the origins ... "Yahu of the Shasu" we know from the south "midianites" ~1400 BC . but we do not find this God mentioned in the Canaanite Pantheon ... and thus this God is a relative late commer to the Canaanite party .. brought from the south as a War God .. one among many among the polytheistic proto Israelites.

 

[GoodAttention]

Yes .. I am well familiar with mesopotamian history 3000 BC to 0. In particular the levant .. the Zedek fellow mentioned a Phonecian God .. Patron God of Jerusalem .. .. my nick the name of the uniter of the city states in mesopotamia into the worlds first empire .. Balkanized ..

How did you conclude Elyon is a Phonecian god?

And according to the Bible Jerusalem was Canaanite ~1800 BC ---

Ruled by what appears to be a self-proclaimed or symbolic King Melchizedek, priest of El Elyon.

However I don't believe the priest or the god are Canaanite either.

 

[shunyadragon]

Pardon me...it's just that I was slightly upset because there are more and more historians like this one who spread very unusual theories, like the one claiming that in the XI century BCE there was no Jewish kingdom .

Not certain of this source. It is in Spanish and a Castilian Spanish and I do not understand him.

It is true in the 11 century BCE the Hebrews were at best a confederation of tribes and not a United Kingdom that evolved into a kingdom. I go with the research by Israel Finkelstein on the archeology of the Early History of Israel. I have two of his books The Bible Unearthed and The Quest for the Historical Israel: Archaeology and the History of Early Israel.

I also have books by Bart Ehrman a historian at UNC who agrees Finkelstein.

I may cite his references on his conclusion on the early history of Israel and what the evidence has determined.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not certain of this source. I may look into it later,

It is true in the 11 century BCE the Hebrews were at best a confederation of tribes and not a United Kingdom that evolved into a kingdom. I go with the research by Israel Finkelstein on the archeology of the Early History of Israel. I have two of his books The Bible Unearthed and The Quest for the Historical Israel: Archaeology and the History of Early Israel.

I may cite his references on his conclusion on the early history of Israel and what the evidence has determined.

I am extremely fond of Ancient History. I couldn't care less about those theories which are surely influenced by religious-political ideologies, which are formulated by incredibly biased people.

I rely on real history and archaeology: the Mesha stele clearly proves that there was a kingdom that was inhabited by people called Israelites, and the neighboring kingdom was Moab, another monarchic state. 840 BCE.

That is why the Phoenicians had to found their colonies elsewhere. And good for them. Carthage became the first world power in the VI century BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

How did you conclude Elyon is a Phonecian god?


Ruled by what appears to be a self-proclaimed or symbolic King Melchizedek, priest of El Elyon.

However I don't believe the priest or the god are Canaanite either.

The Canaanite, Phoenician, Hebrews as a Canaanite tribe and Ugarit cultures shared a pantheon of Gods. The Hebrews did not become predominately Monotheistic until after 600 BCE and the return of the Hebrews from exile. In the polytheistic and Henotheistic world of ancient El or Elyon was part of the pantheon of Gods. This early pantheon included the YHWY God of fire or metallurgy.

This source goes into great detail on the polytheistic and henotheistic beliefs that these cultures shared,

Canaanite Phoenician Origin of the God of the Israelites

The Israelites adopted main Canaanite Phoenician Gods

phoenicia.org

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We do see YHWH among the Canaanite Gods as God of Fire and Metallurgy

Yahweh

Yahweh is the name of the state god of the ancient Kingdom of Israel and, later, the Kingdom of Judah. His name is composed of four Hebrew consonants (YHWH, known as the Tetragrammaton) which the prophet...

www.worldhistory.org

And yet your link notes:

The discovery of Amenhotep III's mention of the Shasu of Yahweh placed the god much earlier in history than had been accepted previously but also suggested that Yahweh was perhaps not native to Canaan. This fit with the theory that Yahweh was a desert god whom the Hebrews adopted in their exodus from Egypt to Canaan.​

Selection bias is less than subtle.

Scholar Nissim Amzallag, of Ben-Gurion University, disagrees with the claim that Yahweh's origins are obscure and argues that the deity was originally a god of the forge and patron of metallurgists during the Bronze Age (c. 3500-1200 BCE). Amzallag specifically cites the ancient copper mines of the Timna Valley (in southern Israel), biblical and extra-biblical passages, and similarities of Yahweh to gods of metallurgy in other cultures for support.

Interesting. Could you supply a link -- perhaps to a paper or book and, if the latter, one that you've actually read?

(BTW, I did find Yahweh and the Origins of Ancient Israel on Amazon and may consider purchasing it, so thank you for that.)

Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh.

It's rather nice to see you employ the Tanakh as relevant evidence.

In any event, shall we now assume that you're (at least provisionally) a fan of Amzallag? I only ask because I assume that you've read the Wikipedia entry which notes in part:

Though no consensus exists regarding the deity's origins,[5] scholars generally contend that Yahweh is associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman,[6] and later with Canaan. The origins of his worship reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age, if not somewhat earlier.[7]​

and

There is almost no agreement on Yahweh's origins.[5] His name is not attested other than among the Israelites, and there is no consensus on its etymology, with ehyeh ašer ehyeh ("I Am that I Am"), the explanation presented in Exodus 3:14,[24] appearing to be a late theological gloss invented at a time when the original meaning had been forgotten,[25] although some scholars dispute this.[26][27]​

Again, let me know if you've read the Amzallag book and would recommend it.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am extremely fond of Ancient History. I couldn't care less about those theories which are surely influenced by religious-political ideologies, which are formulated by incredibly biased people.

I rely on real history and archaeology: the Mesha stele clearly proves that there was a kingdom that was inhabited by people called Israelites, and the neighboring kingdom was Moab, another monarchic state. 840 BCE.

Being fond of ancient history does not help your argument.

The Mesha Stelle proves nothing of the sort. All it does is describe the defeat and capture of a City ruled from a King of the House of David in the 9th century. There is absolutely no independent evidence that documents a United Monarchy as described by Finkelstein with archeological and historical evidence. You have presented no such independent evidence for your biased agenda. By the way the Mesha Stelle translation is controversial, and there is absolutely no Hebrew records to confirm the history of what is claimed to be a United Monarchy at the time, In fact no Hebrew records at all.

Finkelstein and Ehrman both acknowledge the existence of lineage of Kings, but not a United Kingdom until after 900 BCE

Dismissing sound academic sources based on your religious agenda based on the Bible only is more than obvious, There is absolutely no evidence of Israel Finkelstein having any sort of religious or political ideology. He cites extensively archeological, historical and evidence from the Torah.

Your intentional ignorance based on your biased agenda is obvious offering no independent academic references. All I here from you is an angry emotional response.

That is why the Phoenicians had to found their colonies elsewhere. And good for them. Carthage became the first world power in the VI century BCE.

False, the Phoenicians focused their growth on the maritime trade which was the basis for their economy. This has no basis in history. You have not provided any independent academic evidence for any of the above.

The actual evidence concerning Phoenicia in history is very different form your biased description.

Phoenicia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Phoenicians directly succeeded the Bronze Age Canaanites, continuing their cultural traditions following the decline of most major cultures in the Late Bronze Age collapse and into the Iron Age without interruption. It is believed that they self-identified as Canaanites and referred to their land as Canaan, indicating a continuous cultural and geographical association.[8] The name Phoenicia is an ancient Greek exonym that did not correspond precisely to a cohesive culture or society as it would have been understood natively.[9] Therefore, the division between Canaanites and Phoenicians around 1200 BC is regarded as a modern and artificial division.[8]

The Phoenicians, known for their prowess in trade, seafaring and navigation, dominated commerce across classical antiquity and developed an expansive maritime trade network lasting over a millennium. This network facilitated cultural exchanges among major cradles of civilization, such as Greece, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. The Phoenicians established colonies and trading posts across the Mediterranean; Carthage, a settlement in northwest Africa, became a major civilization in its own right in the seventh century BC.

 

[GoodAttention]

The Canaanite, Phoenician, Hebrews as a Canaanite tribe and Ugarit cultures shared a pantheon of Gods. '

Agreed. My question was why the member chose Phoenician specifically for Elyon, and what evidence they had to do so.

The Hebrews did not become predominately Monotheistic until after 600 BCE and the return of the Hebrews from exile. In the polytheistic and Henotheistic world of ancient El or Elyon was part of the pantheon of Gods. This early pantheon included the YHWY God of fire or metallurgy.

Also agree and understand. My point is the Hebrew scriptures were written in such a way to stay true to monotheism, particularly important in verses that include Abraham. In Genesis Abraham gives a tithe to the priest-king Mechizedek for his god Elyon, which I consider questionable in itself. If Elyon is a specific member of the Canaanite pantheon at the time of Abraham, I consider this a support of idolatry and worship of another god. If Elyon is Abraham's God, there is no reason for him to give a tithe, but then would go to say that God was being worshipped in Jerusalem before Abraham by an unknown character as his priest.

So yes, more a curiosity of whether Elyon was a true Canaanite patheon god, or is the El being used in a different way not related to Canaan at all, and why.

This source goes into great detail on the polytheistic and henotheistic beliefs that these cultures shared,

Canaanite Phoenician Origin of the God of the Israelites

The Israelites adopted main Canaanite Phoenician Gods

phoenicia.org

Thank you.

 

[shunyadragon]

Agreed. My question was why the member chose Phoenician specifically for Elyon, and what evidence they had to do so.


Also agree and understand. My point is the Hebrew scriptures were written in such a way to stay true to monotheism, particularly important in verses that include Abraham. In Genesis Abraham gives a tithe to the priest-king Mechizedek for his god Elyon, which I consider questionable in itself. If Elyon is a specific member of the Canaanite pantheon at the time of Abraham, I consider this a support of idolatry and worship of another god. If Elyon is Abraham's God, there is no reason for him to give a tithe, but then would go to say that God was being worshipped in Jerusalem before Abraham by an unknown character as his priest.

So yes, more a curiosity of whether Elyon was a true Canaanite patheon god, or is the El being used in a different way not related to Canaan at all, and why.


Thank you.

The Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE and the return from the exile, and describes the evolution from polytheism/henotheism to monotheism. Traditionally it includes a strong Phoenician/Canaanite influence throughout,

The theme of the Torah is not necessarily pure Monotheism, but the supreme God over or the exclusion of any other Gods.

Just a note: See reference in post #35. There is no clear cultural difference between Phoenicia and Canaan. What is called the Proto-Hebrew alphabet is essentially one of the regional variations of the Phoenician alphabet.

 

[GoodAttention]

Just a note: See reference in post #35. There is no clear cultural difference between Phoenicia and Canaan. What is called the Proto-Hebrew alphabet is essentially one of the regional variations of the Phoenician alphabet.

Yeh I get where you are coming from now....,.

Good luck with whatever point you are trying to make, but I will say this.

History is written by the winners, and to the victors go the spoils.
And if any truth has been buried, there it will remain for all our benefit.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yeh I get where you are coming from now....,.

Good luck with whatever point you are trying to make, but I will say this.

History is written by the winners, and to the victors go the spoils.
And if any truth has been buried, there it will remain for all our benefit.

I go by the objective archeological and historical evidence where ever it leads, and not speculation based on scripture nor any agenda.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I go by the objective archeological and historical evidence where ever it leads, and not speculation based on scripture nor any agenda.

Could you share two or three of your favorite objective archeological and historical books?