If there were no written records then how do you know what they were and what they worshiped?
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The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.
- Thread starter shunyadragon
- Start date
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
We live in a world that has been designed by agendas and then constructed from the speculation of scripture, do you really believe that the history of our world will be any more or less objective than what it already is?
Don't squander the present trying to dig up the past, it is folly.
I respect your opinion.Being fond of ancient history does not help your argument.
The Mesha Stelle proves nothing of the sort. All it does is describe the defeat and capture of a City ruled from a King of the House of David in the 9th century. There is absolutely no independent evidence that documents a United Monarchy as described by Finkelstein with archeological and historical evidence. You have presented no such independent evidence for your biased agenda. By the way the Mesha Stelle translation is controversial, and there is absolutely no Hebrew records to confirm the history of what is claimed to be a United Monarchy at the time, In fact no Hebrew records at all.
Finkelstein and Ehrman both acknowledge the existence of lineage of Kings, but not a United Kingdom until after 900 BCE
Dismissing sound academic sources based on your religious agenda based on the Bible only is more than obvious, There is absolutely no evidence of Israel Finkelstein having any sort of religious or political ideology. He cites extensively archeological, historical and evidence from the Torah.
Your intentional ignorance based on your biased agenda is obvious offering no independent academic references. All I here from you is an angry emotional response.
False, the Phoenicians focused their growth on the maritime trade which was the basis for their economy. This has no basis in history. You have not provided any independent academic evidence for any of the above.
The actual evidence concerning Phoenicia in history is very different form your biased description.
Phoenicia - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The Phoenicians directly succeeded the Bronze Age Canaanites, continuing their cultural traditions following the decline of most major cultures in the Late Bronze Age collapse and into the Iron Age without interruption. It is believed that they self-identified as Canaanites and referred to their land as Canaan, indicating a continuous cultural and geographical association.[8] The name Phoenicia is an ancient Greek exonym that did not correspond precisely to a cohesive culture or society as it would have been understood natively.[9] Therefore, the division between Canaanites and Phoenicians around 1200 BC is regarded as a modern and artificial division.[8]
The Phoenicians, known for their prowess in trade, seafaring and navigation, dominated commerce across classical antiquity and developed an expansive maritime trade network lasting over a millennium. This network facilitated cultural exchanges among major cradles of civilization, such as Greece, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. The Phoenicians established colonies and trading posts across the Mediterranean; Carthage, a settlement in northwest Africa, became a major civilization in its own right in the seventh century BC.
But I still have mine. Staunchly.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Oral tradition. Not everything needs to be recorded, and when your belief is in a God at the exclusion of all others, it is keeping good faith not to be keeping records of their worship.
We live in a natural world . . .
Don't squander the present by clinging to ancient cultural beliefs without science.
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?? I never mentioned Elyon as a Phonecian God ? nor is Elyon a God to begin with .. El Elyon is a title .. God Most High .. another examples would be El Oliun .. God Supreme .. El Shaddai is another .. the experts have not figured out this one .. seems similar to God Most High in that Shaddai is thought to mean "high in the mountains" or "Twin Peaks of the Mountain" the latter some think to be a reference to the divine feminine .. however .. since this is an epiphet for the Canaanite High God "EL" . .and this God was known to dwell in a house high in the Mountains .. think Mount Olympus - Chief God of the Divine Council .. known by other epithets such as Creator - Father - God of the Patriarchs ..
Zedek -- is a God that is found among the Phonecian pantheon - and likewise the Canaanite Pantheon .. these can be looked up on as one in many respects .. this God also has an analog in the Semetic Pantheon .. this was a Twin God(s) of Justice and Righteousness.
Now Jerusalem .. round the time of Abe is a Canaanite City .. who's Patron God is Zedek. Which is fitting as Jerusalem is a Holy City .. the meaning of the name is the City of Peace. So you have the City of Peace with the Patron God Justice and Righteousness.
Now these Twin Gods sit at the "Right Hand of the Father" in the Divine Council of EL .. "The Assembly of EL" - Chief God -- "Most High God" of the Canaanites .. God Most High .. God Supreme .. Creator - Father and so on.
Melchi-Zedek is the Canaanite Priest King of Jerusalem who comes out to meet Abraham .. Genesis 14 ..
So .. Melchi-Zedek is named after the Patron God Zedek. ~1800BC .. when David takes Jerusalem ~1000BC .. the name of the Jesubite-Canaanite king is Adoni-Zedek "my God is Zedek" So this Priesthood is maintained at Jerusalem for at least 800 Years . We will call this priesthood by its modern name .. the Zadokite Priesthood .. after the name of the High Priest at the time of Adoni-Zedek .. which was Zadok.
Now .. the God of The Zadokite Priesthood . the Most High God by which Abram is blessed .. consecrated with Bread and wine .. is the High God EL .. the God most high being referred to is EL .. no one has ever heard of YHWH at this time in history .. never mind being the High God of the Canaanite Pantheon.. which was rather small .. not a large number of Gods..
Now ... lest you think we are neglecting modern theological, historical, archaeological scholarship .. that the God of Abraham was "EL" A God who was also the "Most High God" of Ur ... and the Sumerian Pantheon .. known as Enlil .. a God so magnificient many of the other Gods could not bear his presence. "Enlil, Ellil, EL" different names for the same God ..
Just saying .. Go read "Abraham" in the Encyclopedia Brittanica .. it will tell you that EL is the God of Abraham and the Patriarchs .. The YHWH cult does not get going until the time when the Israelites become a going concern ~11- 1200 BC in the Levant .. the Bronze Age Collapse .. a Polytheistic Bunch who's high God is EL .. when YHWH usurps EL's position as Chief God on Earth . EL is still the High God in the heavens.
The battle depicted in the Bible is that of the "Sons of God" battling amongst each other for the title of Chief God on Earth .. "Most high" .. on Earth .. Most High in the heavens is a different matter. YHWH is one of the Sons of God competing for the Title of Chief God on Earth.
Deut 32:8 New English Translation
Here the "Sons of God" is rendered as the heavenly assembly .. but the number of the Sons of EL was ~70
In any case ... David, rather than kill everyone as was the case for other towns .. Puting all the Priests to Death and so on .. makes the High Priest of Jerusalem .. Zadok .. as High Priest of Israel rather than an Aaronite Priest. This is not a Priesthood of YHWH .. but the Priesthood of EL .. It is not an Aaronite Priest of YHWH that annointes the head of the Great King Solomon .. but a Zadokite Priest.
David .. was a priest of the Order Melchi-Zedek .. Jesus we are told .. was a Priest forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek.
And now you know .. why you need not pay any attention to the commands of YHWH .. as this is not the God of the Covenant of Jesus.
I believe archeology documents cultures with statues, carving and clay figures, and ritual burial without writing preserved in oral traditions. Anthropologists record and document Stone Age cultures today with religions preserved by oral traditions.
So your answer to where documented is "archaeology"? Did you have anything useful to say?
All cultures of the world had evolved religions from the Stone Age and early Bronze Age without writing. We find idols, carvings ceremonial burials and temple.
As with the Early Pastoral tribes of the Hebrews in the Hills of Judah we find many Canaanite clay idols and temples with models to make idols, and no writing,
The following is an interesting article on the archeology of ancient Israel provides good information of early religion without writing and the Gods they believed in.
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible
Renowned archeologist William Dever says that attempts to "prove the Bible" are misguided.
www.pbs.org
Yes, and of course contemporary anthropology of Stone Age cultures without writing, I do not spoon feed the aggressive intentionally ignorant.
^ inane ad hominem ...
True. To when are they dated?
Most of it well after the exile period .. after 500 BC .. and all redacted after that point. don't really see much of an "evolution" except in the last days Jerusalem but, even this is tough to call monotheism .
YHWH dies when the place where is hame resides was destroyed. .. loses the great Battle ..the Great Marduk gains the crown .. which is how the story is supposed to Go ... oddly enough. Quite Prophetic on the part of the ancient story tellers.. "Real" Prophecy as opposed to fake ..
In any case .. prior to the death of YHWH -- according Prophets Ezekiel and others. .. YHWH is worshiped alongside other Gods. This is what the archaeology also says .. and the History..
If you go into a Temple of YHWH what would you find ? 1) Male and Female Temple Prostitutes. .. a very high position .. least for the females .. sorry but I don't know the purpose of the Male Prostitutes ... how they "Fit in" so to speak .. and do pardon the Pun.
so after a visit to your choice of Prostitute .. should you choose ..and after worship of Asherah (Incestual consort of YHWH) - and Anat (daughter) in a Father - Mother - Daughter Trinity of sorts.. you might go into the "hotbox" Where the representations of YHWH and Asherah reside (Standing Sons) .. on which are burned a mixture of Cannibis oil and Frankenscense .. .. then perhaps out back to watch or perform a sacrifice .. partake of a Holy Meal. What is not to like ?
Then the Temple is destroyed .. all the high class are displaced .. many moved to Babylon .. the peasant class remained .. all who were raging polytheists . continue to worship Asherah .. some Jewish communities displaced into Egypt continue to worship Asherah .. and the Elephantine Island Jews of course continue worshiping Asherah - Anat - YHWH down to 400 BC.
King Cyrus .. "The Annointed one of God" then takes over -- the identity of this God who annoints the Good King Cyrus an intersting question .. but it is not YHWH .. as YHWH is dead.. but the Jews come back from Babylon .. the Priestly Class and Administrative officials .. tradespeople and so on .. and they start to create a new religion that we today call Judaism .. The God of this new religion nothing like Lord YHWH nor Lord Jealous .. the nasty twin .. Hyde 1 and Hyde 2. No .. this God is like the God who Annoints Cyrus .. no longer an anthropomorphic God after the Canaanite - Sumerian Pantheon .. but a different God modeled after the primordial uncreated (sexless) God .. Ahura Mazda.
Kind of sounds like YHWH if you say it fast enough I suppose.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Ok now we are getting somewhere, and I do agree withh most of what you have written up to your last sentence.
To identifiy of Melchizedek as a Canaanite, priest, or king is a matter of interpretation. He is as Canaanite as Abraham is at that point, which is to say being present in Canaan at a specific point in time does not confer you the identity of Canaanite. The title King is also immediately followed by priest, the significance is king-priest or the leader of the priesthood, not a sign that he is royalty. Note I said leader and not father. Hence Mechizedek is a king whose king is justice and righteousness or as can also be referred to as wisdom. The only position higher than a king is a god/God.
Melchizedek is a man of wisdom who strives to follow justice and righteousness. This makes Salem the city for peace. Zedek is therefore considered a "Patron God" because these terms are all relative to a time, place, and Abraham's God, which is a Hebrew perspective and not, as the point OP is making, any historical or archaeological reference. It does not consider the more correct position which is Melchizedek is a foreigner to Canaan just as Abraham is, and the personifcation of wisdom as a god Zedek and inclusion into any pantheon, comes after.
Considering what I have said above, the time period, and the use of bread and wine in consecraation, the more historically accurate diety would have to be Ahura Mazda, who is referred to in the Zoroastrian religion as a god of wisdom, righteousness, and "most high". This would then make Melchizedek a representation of Zoroaster himself.
The meeting of Abraham and Zoroaster in Jerusalem at this time is therefore very, very important. They see each other at both striving to see the "right" truth or wisdom of God the Creator and Most high. Zoroaster praises God for delivering the 9 Kings of Canaan into Abraham's hands as a sign of righteousness being the true king, and shares in the bounty of the deposed kings by accepting a tenth of it.
Not El, but Ahura Mazda.
Now I hope you can also consider what YHWH and El signify, which is the God of Abraham and the God of Zoroaster, and any others considered to be of the 70. Given these are all gods of justice, righteousness, or considered together as wisdom, I will conclude with the following chapter that you can interpret as you see fit.
Wisdom has built her house;
she has set up[a] its seven pillars.
2 She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine;
she has also set her table.
3 She has sent out her servants, and she calls
from the highest point of the city,
4 “Let all who are simple come to my house!”
To those who have no sense she says,
5 “Come, eat my food
and drink the wine I have mixed.
6 Leave your simple ways and you will live;
walk in the way of insight.”
Folly is an unruly woman;
she is simple and knows nothing.
14 She sits at the door of her house,
on a seat at the highest point of the city,
15 calling out to those who pass by,
who go straight on their way,
16 “Let all who are simple come to my house!”
To those who have no sense she says,
17 “Stolen water is sweet;
food eaten in secret is delicious!”
18 But little do they know that the dead are there,
that her guests are deep in the realm of the dead.
Melchi-Zedek is not a foreigner like Abraham .. That is ridiculous comment in context of the biblical story and you gave no back-up .. like where are you getting this from.
It completely matters not what the ethnic background of the King of Jerusalem in 1800 BC .. the points to take out of the story are 1) Zedek .. is the patron God of Jerusalem at the time (Historically Jerusalem is a very small town at this time in history .. but a special Holy city)
The Priest-King .. as Melchi-Zedek is both Priest and King ... somethign which was not acceptible to the Israelits .. separating Priest and King .. but that is 800 years later -- this King has taken the name of the Patron God.. which 90% of priest-kings of walled cities do during this time in history .. at a time when all people believe in many Gods .. regardless of where you are from .. Abe's idea was to worship only one of these Gods .. so he chose the Most High God .. who at the time is EL .. but this is not just the most high God to Abe .. Jerusalem is not the only Temple of EL at the time .. EL who is big time High God .. to all people in Mesopotamia .. from Babylon -around the fertile crescent to Egypt .. EL is the Big Cheese
The takeaway is the Zadokite Priesthood is alive and well in Jerusalem at the time of Abe .. and this Priesthood still exists in Jerusalem when David shows up ~ 1000 BC .. (Adoni-Zedek -- my God is Zedek) and that his Priesthood is maintained during the time of the Israelites .. alongside YHWH worship .. having a different priestly class ..
Your connecting AZ with EL is something I would like to make happen .. and very fond of the idea .. but it doesn't fit EL and AZ are two different Gods .. one being a Primordial God .. Uncreated . the other being a child of the Primorial ooze.
Further and perhaps most importantly .. one must read this scripture from a Polytheistic Lens .. there was no concept of the monotheistic Ahura Mazda of Judaism ... there was no monotheism .. no way to connect the two other than to have one of the Primordial Gods "Tiamat" for example as Ahura Mazda .. but this is not what folks believed was "the Most High" God of Earth .. Tiamat is not the God .. nor the kind of God being worshiped at Jerusalem in the time of Abe. ..
Ahura Mazda is however the type-model - or some fusion of this and somethign else .. of Judaism . a completely different God than YHWH being the main take-away.
I like the idea of Zoroaster being Melchi-Zedek .. and have tried to make it work myself .. but have not succeeded .. and you surely have not been much help .
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Referring to Melchizedek as a Canaanite is presumptive and leads you down a path that ""confirms" Zedek, Canaan Patron gods, pantheons and so forth. It is anachronistic to history and Canaan-centric. In fact, labelling any righteous person like Melchizedek a Canaanite is an insult and shows you are not understanding how the Hebrew scriptures purposefully separate the descendants of Canaan from the descendants of Shem.
Why wouldn't you consider Melchizedek to be a reference to Ahura Mazda just from the name alone? There is far, far more archaeological and written evidence describing the god of Zoroaster, wisdom, righteousness, most high etc than any Zedek.
The idea that "one must read this scripture from a polytheistic lens" is one sided and myopic view so you don't see the missing piece.
You want Zoroaster to be Melchizedek ask yourself this, how do you think King Cyrus would have seen polytheism, Mechizedek, Jerusalem, the Hebrew scriptures, and the God of Abraham to the point where he would want to support the Jewish people?
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Good grief .. what part of .. it matters not what ethnic group are in charge of Jerusalem at the time .. did you not understand ? What matters is that they were worshiping EL as the Most High .. the Patron God of the city of Peace was Zadok .. the Chief God of the Cananite Pantheon ..
and Sorry for the Apeal to authority but .. what part of this is modern theology 101, biblical history 101 .. archaeology 101 .. History 101 .. missed notice ?
I have not looked it up specificly .. but we could Jerusalem 1800 BC . but off top of head I know the Ugarit stuff is 14-1500 BC .. Jerusalem firmly "Canaanite" and thriving at this point in time.
OMG --- What part of .. you have to read this scripture from a polytheistic lens .. and it is myopic to do otherwise ... do you not understand.
What part of .. your perspective has no bearing on the perspective of a the people of Abraham's time in the land of Canaan. and that perspective is one of polytheism ... or at least a belief in the existence of many Gods .... to a person.
First, not my opinion, describing Israel Finkelstein's works and publications on the ancient history of Israel as opinion, is an insult of the greatest magnitude for one of the foremost scholars in his field. Most academic historians and archeologist in the field agree with him.
Second, yes you hold your 'beliefs' staunchly and rather emotionally, ignoring academic archeology and science in general clinging to a literal interpretation of ancient tribal scripture without provenance or science.
I'm an archeology student. You may be amazed at just how much of what Finkelstein says is opinion and personal interpretation.
Untrue. There is a certain school that agrees with him, but there are many that don't. And some that only partially agree. I wouldn't tout him as the everything and all in the world of ancient Israelite archeology.