The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.

[Estro Felino]

First, not my opinion, describing Israel Finkelstein's works and publications on the ancient history of Israel as opinion, is an insult of the greatest magnitude for on of the foremost scholars in his field.

Second, yes you hold your 'beliefs' staunchly and rather emotionally, ignoring academic archeology and science in general clinging to a literal interpretation of ancient tribal scripture without provenance or science.

I study Ancient History objectively.
Can I ask you a basic question of Ancient History?
What was the city against which Carthage fought the most, from the end of the VI century BCE to the third?

PS: It's not Rome. In the VI century Rome was still under the influence of Etruscan kings.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm an archeology student. You may be amazed at just how much of what Finkelstein says is opinion and personal interpretation.

I am not remotely impressed by your claims of qualifications. Being an archaeological student hardly compares to the academic qualifications of Finkelstein, Ehrman, and others cited here. Beware of highly biased apologetic sources.

I am a geologist with 50 years experience and an academic background in archaeology and worked cooperatively with archaeologists on sites of the geomorphological aspects of Stone Age settlements,

Untrue. There is a certain school that agrees with him, but there are many that don't. And some that only partially agree. I wouldn't tout him as the everything and all in the world of ancient Israelite archeology.

You need to do better with academic references than vague unfounded accusations based on an apologetic agenda.

 

[shunyadragon]

I study Ancient History objectively.

Your very emotional 'stoic' apologetic biased argument negates any objectivity here. I go with the sound academic qualifications of Finkelstein and Ehrman over biased apologetic arguments without science.

Can I ask you a basic question of Ancient History?
What was the city against which Carthage fought the most, from the end of the VI century BCE to the third?

PS: It's not Rome. In the VI century Rome was still under the influence of Etruscan kings.

The issues of this thread is Middle East history before 800-600 BCE.

Needs further explanation and academic sources as to what your point is here. Carthage was founded by Phoenicians before the rise of Rome.

 

[Estro Felino]

Needs further explanation as to what your point is here. Carthage was founded by Phoenicians before the rise of Rome.

Then explain me the linguistic difference between ancient Phoenician and ancient Hebrew.
How similar they were and how different they were.

 

[Harel13]

I am not remotely impressed by your claims of qualifications. Being an archaeological student hardly compares to the academic qualifications of Finkelstein, Ehrman, and others cited here. Beware of highly biased apologetic sources.

I am a geologist with 50 years experience and an academic background in archaeology and worked cooperatively with archaeologists on sites of the geomorphological aspects of Stone Age settlements,

You need to do better with academic references than vague unfounded accusations based on an apologetic agenda.

Okay. I'll collect some select papers of respectable archeologists that disagree with Finkelstein. Be right back.

 

[shunyadragon]

Then explain me the linguistic difference between ancient Phoenician and ancient Hebrew.
How similar they were and how different they were.

Actually i gave references covering this previously. The dominant written language of the Levant and the Mediterranean including Carthage was Phoenician/Canaanite script before the rise of Greece and Rome and the Punic Wars,. Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite tribes that evolved a written text based on Phoenician/Canaanite text after 900 BCE.

One of the key factors in the evolution of Hebrew written text is the development of trade after the 9th century with the introduction of camels and an in increased trade in Copper and other mineral resources East-West through the Levant,

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay. I'll collect some select papers of respectable archeologists that disagree with Finkelstein. Be right back.

Avoid clearly apologetic sources.

 

[shunyadragon]

An interesting point in the history of the Levant and the Mediterranean region and the reason I use the Phoenician/Canaanite terminology:


Source: Phoenicia - Wikipedia


The Phoenicians directly succeeded the Bronze Age Canaanites, continuing their cultural traditions following the decline of most major cultures in the Late Bronze Age collapse and into the Iron Age without interruption. It is believed that they self-identified as Canaanites and referred to their land as Canaan, indicating a continuous cultural and geographical association.[8] The name Phoenicia is an ancient Greek exonym that did not correspond precisely to a cohesive culture or society as it would have been understood natively.[9] Therefore, the division between Canaanites and Phoenicians around 1200 BC is regarded as a modern and artificial division.

© Copyright Original Source

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am not remotely impressed by your claims of qualifications.

I suspect that you're not remotely familiar with the field, one which, by the way, extends beyond the Finkestein-Dever debates. Still, I'd be very interested to know if you've actually read a book by either. Interestingly enough, it is a question that you, who are "not remotely impressed" by @Harel13 , assiduously avoid.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

An interesting point in the history of the Levant and the Mediterranean region and the reason I use the Phoenician/Canaanite terminology:

Sometimes, methinks, your contributions to the field descend from repetitive to performative.

 

[Estro Felino]

Actually i gave references covering this previously. The dominant written language of the Levant and the Mediterranean including Carthage was Phoenician/Canaanite script before the rise of Greece and Rome and the Punic Wars,. Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite tribes that evolved a written text based on Phoenician/Canaanite text after 900 BCE.

I am not speaking of alphabet.
They were two distinct languages and two distinct peoples.
Archeology says it.
The Mesha stele proves that the Moabite language was different than Phoenician, and closer to ancient Hebrew.
IX century BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am not speaking of alphabet.

The use of the Phoenician alphabet is all we have in the Mesha Stella, an in the tribes of the Levant that Canaanite cultures and Gods.

They were two distinct languages and two distinct peoples.

No, they were both culturally Canaanite tribes

Archeology says it.
The Mesha stele proves that the Moabite language was different than Phoenician, and closer to ancient Hebrew.
IX century BCE.

Bottomline the above is false. All the tribes of the region had written texts that were variants of the Phoenician script, because the Phoenician/Canaanite culture dominated the region and the Moabites and the Hebrews culturally Phoenician/Canaanite tribes. No comparable distinctly Hebrew script was known at the time of the Mesha Stella ~840 BCE

The Moabites and Hebrews were closely associated geographically, an therefore us similar Phoenician script, but they still had variations of Canaanite culture and Gods before 900 BCE.

Mesha Stele - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Mesha Stele, also known as the Moabite Stone, is a stele dated around 840 BCE containing a significant Canaanite inscription in the name of King Mesha of Moab (a kingdom located in modern Jordan). Mesha tells how Chemosh, the god of Moab, had been angry with his people and had allowed them to be subjugated to the Kingdom of Israel, but at length, Chemosh returned and assisted Mesha to throw off the yoke of Israel and restore the lands of Moab. Mesha also describes his many building projects.[1] It is written in a variant of the Phoenician alphabet, closely related to the Paleo-Hebrew script.

Your confusing post #61 concerning Carthage needs explanation.

 

[Harel13]

You need to do better with academic references than vague unfounded accusations based on an apologetic agenda.

Regarding difficulties with Finkelstein's opinion on the Israelite settlement in the Galilee, see Dr. Zvi Gal's paper "The Northern Valleys—The Ethno-Cultural Melting Pot of the Iron Age I" [Hebrew], Eretz-Israel 30 (2011), pp. 139-144.

Regarding Finkelstein's opinion on the nomadic population of the Arabah region, see Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef's papers "Rethinking the Social Complexity of Early Iron Age Nomads", JJAR 1 (2021), pp. 155-179; "And Yet, a Nomadic Error: A Reply to Israel Finkelstein", Antiguo Oriente 18 (2020), pp. 33-60.

Regarding Finkelstein's opinion that Kiriath Jearim was an Israelite border cultic site, see Prof. Yigal Levin's paper "Was Kiriath-jearim in Judah or Benjamin?", IEJ 71 (2021), pp. 43-63. Furthermore, last year I attended a lecture by Finkelstein where he spoke about his interpretation of Kiriath jearim as an Israelite site founded by, or at least massively expanded by Jeroboam II, and then Prof. Aren Maeir, best known for directing the Tell es-Safi exacavations, gave a pre-scheduled response: In his opinion, the connection to Jeroboam is doubtful, as epigraphic evidence of Jeroboam in general is scanty at best (cf. e.g. this recent paper), but worse yet, there is currently no material evidence that the site was an Israelite site, as opposed to a Judahite site.

Some flaws in the usage of the term "proto-Israelite" (see also above in Gal's paper): Prof. Avraham Faust, "Future Directions in the Study of Ethnicity in Ancient Israel", in: Levy T. E. (ed.), Historical Biblical Archaeology and the Future, London: Routledge 2010, pp. 55-68.

Some flaws in the absolute dating of the Iron Age based on pottery assemblages: Dr. Yitzhak Meitlis, "A Re-analysis of the Archaeological Evidence for the Beginning of the Iron Age I", in: Fantalkin A. and Yassur-Landau A. (eds.), Bene Israel: Studies in the Archaeology of Israel and the Levant during the Bronze and Iron Ages in Honour of Israel Finkelstein, Leiden: Brill 2008, pp. 105-111.

On the dating of Qeiyafa, see e.g. Prof. Yossi Garfinkel and Dr. Hoo-Goo Kang, "The Relative and Absolute Chronology of Khirbet Qeiyafa: Very Late Iron Age I or Very Early Iron Age IIA?", IEJ 61 (2011), pp. 171-183; Garfinkel et al, "King David’s City at Khirbet Qeiyafa: Results of the Second Radiocarbon Dating Project", Radiocarbon 57 (2015), pp. 881-890.

Should I go on?

 

[Sargonski]

I am extremely fond of Ancient History. I couldn't care less about those theories which are surely influenced by religious-political ideologies, which are formulated by incredibly biased people.

I rely on real history and archaeology: the Mesha stele clearly proves that there was a kingdom that was inhabited by people called Israelites, and the neighboring kingdom was Moab, another monarchic state. 840 BCE.

Being fond of ancient history does not help your argument.

The Mesha Stelle proves nothing of the sort. All it does is describe the defeat and capture of a City ruled from a King of the House of David in the 9th century. There is absolutely no independent evidence that documents a United Monarchy as described by Finkelstein with archeological and historical evidence. You have presented no such independent evidence for your biased agenda. By the way the Mesha Stelle translation is controversial, and there is absolutely no Hebrew records to confirm the history of what is claimed to be a United Monarchy at the time, In fact no Hebrew records at all.

being fond of history would indeed help any argument related to history .... but strawman fallacy is certainly not an argument for much

Absolutely the Mesha Stele clearly proves there was a Kingdom called the Israelites .. along with all the other evidence. Who said anything about a United monarchy ?

Talking past the other clearly an issue .. which is what btw ? Obviously there was a nation of Israel .. the Northern Kingdom .. as recored by the Assyrians who demolished that nation ~720 BC .. Whether or not the Southern two tribes .. which did not amount to much in terms of population and resources .. Jerusalem kind of like a vatican of sorts .. a Holy City holding relative autonomy on this basis - was officially part of Israel is relevant to the conversation why ? .. What is the point of this mundane distinction .. other than perhaps to suggest that the Solomon's Temple was not built in Jerusalem but perhaps somewhere else ? what are we trying to get at here ?

 

[Estro Felino]

being fond of history would indeed help any argument related to history .... but strawman fallacy is certainly not an argument for much

Absolutely the Mesha Stele clearly proves there was a Kingdom called the Israelites .. along with all the other evidence. Who said anything about a United monarchy ?

Talking past the other clearly an issue .. which is what btw ? Obviously there was a nation of Israel .. the Northern Kingdom .. as recored by the Assyrians who demolished that nation ~720 BC .. Whether or not the Southern two tribes .. which did not amount to much in terms of population and resources .. Jerusalem kind of like a vatican of sorts .. a Holy City holding relative autonomy on this basis - was officially part of Israel is relevant to the conversation why ? .. What is the point of this mundane distinction .. other than perhaps to suggest that the Solomon's Temple was not built in Jerusalem but perhaps somewhere else ? what are we trying to get at here ?

I wrote countless wikipedia articles on ancient history and archeology. In Italian of course.
That said, the Hebrew presence is even more ancient than the XI century BC.

 

[Sargonski]

I wrote countless wikipedia articles on ancient history and archeology. In Italian of course.
That said, the Hebrew presence is even more ancient than the XI century BC.

Absolutely .. the "nation/people group" Israel is mentioned by Egypt on the Mernephta stele ~ 1200 BC .. at this point an entity big enough for the Egyptians to take notice and dispatch the army to deal with .. along with other Canaanite groups at the time .. mostly Nomadic groups .. prior to 1200 BC when Egypt to the South and the Hittites to the North have a firm grip on everything in between

YET .. Let us understand .. These Nomadic Tribes have a long history of Taking over .. Babylon ruled for 3 centuries by the Kassites .. The Sythians .. just a few of many examples. .. the group that took over Assyria .. and lest we forget .. The Semetic Nomadic tribes that took over Part of Egypt for over 100 Years .. known as the Hyksos .. these are Canaanite Nomadic Tribes who control the Hi- Lands .. raiding and making trouble .. the Hiburru .. same thing these Tribes making trouble .. existing on the Margins ..

It was from these tribal Nomads .. Canaanite Tribal Nomades .. speaking Canaanite Language ... Scholars saying now that if you go back far enough Hebrew is indistinguishable from Canaanite .. and it was the Canaanites who spawned the Phonetic Alphabet and writing style ~ 1500 BC if memory serves.

Abraham and all his children take Canaanite wives and husbands .. it is the land into which a family (which includes servants and such) moves .. after which .. they all Canaanite baby ..

The slave trade was a huge part of the economy Hittite and Egypt - and everyone in between .. the "Nomads" - Barbarians" - "Raiders" - "Hill People" "Roughians = Hiburru" the word having nothing to do with the term "Hebrew" but everything to do with the Canaanite Nomadic tribes that seised power in the levant during the Vaccuum created by the Bronze Age Collapse.

 

[shunyadragon]

I wrote countless wikipedia articles on ancient history and archeology. In Italian of course.

Not impressed based on your attitude toward the best academics in Ancient Hebrew history and archeology.

That said, the Hebrew presence is even more ancient than the XI century BC.

Yes, the Hebrews were a Canaanite tribe going back to the Stone Age at least.

In first, archaeologists extract DNA of ancient Israelites

***

www.haaretz.com

This is important because, as mentioned, researchers have already mapped the DNA of ancient Canaanites, showing that they had a strong ancestral connection to modern-day Jewish and Arab populations. That research, published in Cell in 2020, also showed that the Canaanites in the Middle and Late Bronze Age (before the emergence of the Israelite identity) descended from a mix of Neolithic inhabitants of the Levant and a group that immigrated from the Caucasus or Eastern Anatolia.


This migration was already in motion in the Early Bronze Age, around 2900-2500 B.C.E., and is also visible archaeologically, with pottery from this period exhibiting strong influences from Anatolia and the Caucasus. It continued in the Middle Bronze Age, as seen in the study of ancient DNA of individuals from Megiddo and other places, and is evident in the mention in historical texts of Canaanite officials in the Late Bronze Age, with names that are not Semitic and originate in the northeastern Middle East, Finkelstein says.

There is evidence of Canaanites as old a 4,000 years ago.

Archaeologists find perplexing 4,000-year-old Canaanite arch in northern Israel

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Should I go on?

Well done (not that it will help)!

P.S.:

1. Can you suggest a couple of useful articles on Finkelstein's low chronology?
2. For what it's worth, I loved Abraham Faust's Israel's Ethnogenesis.

 

[Harel13]

Can you suggest a couple of useful articles on Finkelstein's low chronology?

I assume you're looking for articles from his perspective, though naturally there is a dearth from the other side. Here's a relatively old one that summarizes his side nicely:

Finkelstein, I. 2005. A Low Chronology Update: Archaeology, History and Bible, In Levy, I. and Higham, T. (eds.), The Bible and Radiocarbon Dating: Archaeology, Text and Science, London: 31-42.

Finkelstein, I. 2005. A Low Chronology Update: Archaeology, History and Bible, In Levy, I. and Higham, T. (eds.), The Bible and Radiocarbon Dating: Archaeology, Text and Science, London: 31-42.

www.academia.edu

And a newer one touching on some particular points from more recent excavations:

Finkelstein, I. 2020. Iron Age Chronology and Biblical History Rejoinders: The Late Bronze/Iron Age Transition, Tel 'Eton and Lachish, PEQ 152: 82–93.

In this article, I review three recent articles. In the first, Asscher and Boaretto (2018. ‘Absolute time ranges in the plateau of the Late Bronze to Iron Age transition and the appearance of Bichrome pottery in Canaan, Southern Levant’, Radiocarbon

www.academia.edu

For what it's worth, I loved Abraham Faust's Israel's Ethnogenesis.

One of my professors refers to it quite a bit. I also read it. It's not really my type of book (not the theory, just the way it's presented), but I think it's an important one. Faust used to teach at our department (years before my time), but now teaches at a different department (and I don't have enough credits to attend his classes...).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I assume you're looking for articles from his perspective, though naturally there is a dearth from the other side.

Thanks!

Not really. I guess I'm looking for a balanced view of the consensus and some sense of the current trajectory of that consensus.