The archaeological and historical evidence of the early history of the Jews before 600 BCE.

[shunyadragon]

You didn't specify any particular topic you wanted to discuss and all you said was to back up my general statement with academic sources. So that's what I did. Is there any particular topic you want to discuss in depth?

The question of the existence of the United Monarchy in Hebrew history before 900-600 BCE,

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What I offered was a simply factual statement concerning the text.

So let me see if I understand.

I asked @Harel13 -- a person studying and working in the field -- if he could "suggest any discussions of the Izbet Sartah abecedary," and you -- having (as far as I can discern) zero credentials in the area, took that as warranting an immanently superficial scrap of commentary. OK ...

 

[shunyadragon]

So let me see if I understand.

I asked @Harel13 -- a person studying and working in the field -- if he could "suggest any discussions of the Izbet Sartah abecedary," and you -- having (as far as I can discern) zero credentials in the area, took that as warranting an immanently superficial scrap of commentary. OK ...

Not OK? This an OPEN FORUM anyone can respond to any post they choose unless you post it in a debate or specific thread of a dialogue between two members. You have not responded to the simple factual response and of course in your stoic arrogance you need not respond,

I doubt any conclusions can be made based on the simple facts of the history of the archaeological finds concerning the evolution of Hebrew writing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not OK?

Please pay attention. I never said that it was not OK, just mildly pedantic and underwhelming.

 

[shunyadragon]

Please pay attention. I never said that it was not OK, just mildly pedantic and underwhelming.

Can you provide any further interpretation other than the factual nature of text in the context of other known discoveries of Proto-Canaanite texts in evolving written languages across the Levant where other Proto-Canaanite Texts and Canaanite culture exist like the Moabites.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can you provide any further interpretation other than the factual nature of text ... ?

I can provide observations, and will gladly do so should @Harel13 offer some relevant references that I have yet to see.

But please note that none of this was addressed to you. You have every right to function as an interloper and I have every right to dismiss those attempts.

 

[shunyadragon]

I can provide observations, and will gladly do so should @Harel13 offer some relevant references that I have yet to see.

But please note that none of this was addressed to you. You have every right to function as an interloper and I have every right to dismiss those attempts.

This is my thread an OREN FORUM anyone may reply to any post they chose and their relevant responses should warrant respect, and not pejorative insults,

I do await a response from @Harel13.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is my thread an OREN FORUM ...

 

[shunyadragon]

Forum rules not mine.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Based on the archaeological, and historical evidence the following will be proposed in this Thread.

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. In fact the only records known are from other Kingdoms, like Egypt and Kingdoms that defeated Hebrews in battle.
(2) Before 1000 BCE the Hebrews were various pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the North. No known written language or written records from Independent sources,
(3) The Canaanites dominated the region and the City of Jerusalem up to ~1550 BCE
(4) Egypt conquered most of the Levant and colonized the region between ~1550 - 1000 BCE. The Amarna letters, archaeology and other Egyptian records document this. During this time the Levant was contested between the Egyptians and the Hittites.
(5)The Period of upheaval in the late Bronze Age collapse Egypt's hold on the Levant began to deteriorate in ~1100 BCE, by ~1000 BCE
(6) There is a lack of independent records to determine who occupied Jerusalem in the Period o Upheaval.
(7) The Hebrews began to increase in fluence and prosperity, in the region as a loose Confederation as the Egyptians retreated from the Levant. Invasions by the Sea people? and Phoenicians controlled the costal regions. The Philistines dominated the Southern Levant.
(8) A line of Kings including David likely existed between 1200 BCE and 800 BCE and on, but there is no evidence to support a United Monarchy independent of the Bible, before 900-800 BCE..

The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, dates to approximately 1208 BCE. That means Israel existed at least that far back.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, dates to approximately 1208 BCE. That means Israel existed at least that far back.

Now you've done it!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

(1) There are no records written by Hebrews before 800-600 BCE. ...

Am I the only one who finds the above formulation to be curiously worded? After all, "... before 800-600 BCE" seems like a lot of wiggle room.

And, of course, the absence of evidence is far from evidence of absence when one is talking about papyrus rather than clay tablets.

 

[shunyadragon]

Am I the only one who finds the above formulation to be curiously worded? After all, "... before 800-600 BCE" seems like a lot of wiggle room.

And, of course, the absence of evidence is far from evidence of absence when one is talking about papyrus rather than clay tablets.

Were not talking about papyrus. We are talking about writing on stone and clay, which are common in other kingdoms in ancient history and for Hebrews after 800 BCE.

Of course? Considering the description in the Torah concerning the history of the United Kingdom and the claims of extreme winning of battles and conquests since Saul is severely problematic without any evidence, making it most likely Created history for patriotic religious reasons after 600 BCE,

All we have is records from the enemies of the Hebrews defeating the Hebrews, and nothing from the Hebrews,

 

[shunyadragon]

The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, dates to approximately 1208 BCE. That means Israel existed at least that far back.

Extreme over statement based on a religious agenda of what was written on the Merneptah Stele. It referred to the people not the existence of a state.

Luxor: Merneptah Stele - overview · The Land of Israel / Palestine: Image Database

Image Database for "The Land of Israel/Palestine Through the Ages".

image-database.nes.lsa.umich.edu

The Merneptah Stele, pictured here, is an inscription written in hieroglyphs on granite during the reign of the Egyptian king Merneptah (1213-1203 BCE). It contains the earliest preserved inscriptional evidence of the name Israel (and perhaps therefore the Israelites). In the inscription 'Israel' it is mentioned together with three other defeated states in Canaan (Gezer, Yanoam, and Ashkelon). The hieroglyphic symbols used designate a foreign people group, as opposed to a city (as the words for Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yano'am are marked), suggesting that in the late 12th century Israel had achieved a specific identity as a people but had not yet developed into a fixed political entity or state.

It acknowledged by archeological evidence that the Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the time the Stelle was engraved,

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of course? Considering the description in the Torah concerning the history of the United Kingdom ...

Torah or Tanach?

If you insist on redundant yet superficial bible-bashing you could at least work on on your presentation.

 

[GoodAttention]

The Merneptah Stele, pictured here, is an inscription written in hieroglyphs on granite during the reign of the Egyptian king Merneptah (1213-1203 BCE). It contains the earliest preserved inscriptional evidence of the name Israel (and perhaps therefore the Israelites). In the inscription 'Israel' it is mentioned together with three other defeated states in Canaan (Gezer, Yanoam, and Ashkelon).

If Canaan is to mean Gaza (which can be considered), then this would be followed by Ashkelon, Tel Gezer (at the foot of the Judaen Hills) and potentially Tel Yokneam (?scribing error for Yenoam). The inscription translated "Israel" or "Yisra(el)" could also be considered "Yisre" or, to be related to the people of the Jezreel valley. Specifically those people who identified as pastoral and agrarian.

The hieroglyphic symbols used designate a foreign people group, as opposed to a city (as the words for Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yano'am are marked), suggesting that in the late 12th century Israel had achieved a specific identity as a people but had not yet developed into a fixed political entity or state.

It acknowledged by archeological evidence that the Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the time the Stelle was engraved,

These pastoral Hebrews, considered "Israeli", could have been the collective name for those that inhabited the areas along hills for agriculture. This would potentially include those living near Tel Gezer in Judah also.

All this suggests the inscriptions are not necessarily describing Merneptah's victory of the Israelis, but perhaps the Late Bronze Age collapse or invasion of Sea Peoples.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, dates to approximately 1208 BCE. That means Israel existed at least that far back.

Extreme over statement based on a religious agenda of what was written on the Merneptah Stele.

That was an "extreme over statement based on a religious agenda"? Seriously? Whine less.

The hieroglyphic symbols used designate a foreign people group, as opposed to a city (as the words for Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yano'am are marked), suggesting that in the late 12th century Israel had achieved a specific identity as a people but had not yet developed into a fixed political entity or state.

Therefore? The fact remains that the defeat of "Israel" was something that mighty Egypt deemed boast-worthy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Extreme over statement based on a religious agenda of what was written on the Merneptah Stele. It referred to the people not the existence of a state.

Luxor: Merneptah Stele - overview · The Land of Israel / Palestine: Image Database

Image Database for "The Land of Israel/Palestine Through the Ages".

image-database.nes.lsa.umich.edu

The Merneptah Stele, pictured here, is an inscription written in hieroglyphs on granite during the reign of the Egyptian king Merneptah (1213-1203 BCE). It contains the earliest preserved inscriptional evidence of the name Israel (and perhaps therefore the Israelites). In the inscription 'Israel' it is mentioned together with three other defeated states in Canaan (Gezer, Yanoam, and Ashkelon). The hieroglyphic symbols used designate a foreign people group, as opposed to a city (as the words for Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yano'am are marked), suggesting that in the late 12th century Israel had achieved a specific identity as a people but had not yet developed into a fixed political entity or state.

It acknowledged by archeological evidence that the Hebrews were pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah in the time the Stelle was engraved,

I'm confused. How is my view "extreme" and "based on a religious agenda, when your secular quote above completely affirms EVERYTHING I said?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm confused. How is my view "extreme" and "based on a religious agenda, when your secular quote above completely affirms EVERYTHING I said?

But you said: "The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele, dates to approximately 1208 BCE. That means Israel existed at least that far back." Shame on both you and your agenda!

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm confused. How is my view "extreme" and "based on a religious agenda, when your secular quote above completely affirms EVERYTHING I said?

No the secular citation does not confirm anything you stated. The Merneptah Stele, does not confirm the existence of Israel as a state in the translation I cited. The Merneptah Stele, only confirms the existence of the Hebrews, which yes they were pastoral Canaanite tribes in the Hills of Judah.