The Big Bang Theory is dead.

[John53]

Let me put it this way to you -- I believe Jesus appeared to some (not all) after his resurrection. I believe there is a way of life that is approved by God and beneficial for those walking in it. It may not be accepted by all, and obviously not all believe in God. And there are also different opinions about how to worship God. Just as some go by expert majority opinion, others may not. Therefore, have a good day.

I put it to you that no one knows everything and claiming they do is delusional. Thanks for the passive aggressive ending, it always makes me chuckle. May Santa be kind to you.

 

[YoursTrue]

I put it to you that no one knows everything and claiming they do is delusional. Thanks for the passive aggressive ending, it always makes me chuckle. May Santa be kind to you.

Perhaps you depend on Santa, I'm not a betting person, but I can *figure* you do depend on one of two things, perhaps equal in substance or evidence: luck, or Santa. Have a good one anyway.

 

[gnostic]

Let me put it this way to you -- I believe Jesus appeared to some (not all) after his resurrection. I believe there is a way of life that is approved by God and beneficial for those walking in it. It may not be accepted by all, and obviously not all believe in God. And there are also different opinions about how to worship God.

Yes, these are the things that you “believe in”, but you “don’t know” of these for facts.

what people believe in and what they know are two different things.

believing in something, beliefs are no different from having personal opinions or personal views…beliefs are highly subjective, and therefore relying on faith…but faith-based beliefs are often riddled with illogical biases: confirmation bias, circular reasoning, argument from ignorance, etc.

Other than by faith, belief is simply unjustified assumptions. Thy cannot be justified, because they are not supported by the evidence. Evidence is what provide support with some objectivity; faith is the opposite of evidence, because it relied on one’s own judgment of what is true or not.

for instance, you cannot “know” that Jesus’ resurrection happened, but you can certainly “believe” it.

 

[John53]

Perhaps you depend on Santa, I'm not a betting person, but I can *figure* you do depend on one of two things, perhaps equal in substance or evidence: luck, or Santa. Have a good one anyway.

I have no idea what that 1st sentence means. I do understand the passive aggressive dismissal in the 2nd sentence.

Be good for goodness sake.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Sure.

Let's do the classic analogy of ants moving around on an expanding sphere. This is analogous to galaxies moving in an expanding universe. The motion of the ants *on* the sphere is called the peculiar motion. For galaxies, this is due to, for example, the gravitational forces between nearby galaxies. You may have hear that the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy are going to collide in a few billion years. This is due to the peculiar motion of the two galaxies.

The Hubble Flow, in this analogy, corresponds to the motion of the ants due to the overall expansion of the sphere. It represents the motion between galaxies because of the overall expansion of the universe, as opposed to the smaller scale peculiar motion.

In the early days of cosmology, the attempts to measure the Hubble parameter (which gives the relation between distance and velocity of motion away for galaxies) was complicated because we could only get good distance measurements for 'nearby' galaxies and the peculiar motion was large enough compared the the Hubble flow that the estimates had very large error bars.

This is related to the next topic.



I would say that JWST measurements make the estimates more *un*certain.

The problem seems to be that low estimates for the Hubble parameter (around 67 km/sec/mPar) are those obtained from the background radiation and the higher estimates (around 73 km/sec/mPar) are those obtained by using the distance ladder to estimate distances to distant galaxies.

Which is correct? Nobody knows.

The tension was first seen about 5 years ago and there is active research being done to figure out what is going on. The wikipedia article on this is fairly good and covers the values obtained this century.

That said, I find it somewhat funny that a 10% difference is seen as large when 50 years ago the estimates for the parameter were 'somewhere between 50 and 100' with debate very heated between the two camps. That a 10% difference is considered significant is a testimony to how accurate cosmology has become over the last 20 years or so.

My personal guess is that the distance ladder estimates are off. The CMBR estimates seem more fundamental and less likely to have cascading error bars. But there is also a possibility of new physics (an equation of state for dark energy is perhaps the most likely of these).

Given that this tension has only been around for 5 years, I would wait until JWST (for distance ladder estimates) and other sources (for CMBR estimates) have opportunity to collect more data.

Since the difference is small (although statistically significant), this has almost no conseque3nces for the overall age of the universe. We are still talking about somewhere in the 13-14 billion year range either way.

The issue is that with the JWST evidence, the difference in the 2 seems to more certain now. And although 10 % does not seem like much, it is a big problem..

The bottom of this article goes into some detail.

After 2 years in space, the James Webb telescope has broken cosmology. Can it be fixed?

For decades, measurements of the universe's expansion have suggested a disparity known as the Hubble tension, which threatens to break cosmology as we know it. Now, on the eve of its second anniversary, a new finding by the James Webb Space Telescope has only entrenched the mystery.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Polymath257]

The issue is that with the JWST evidence, the difference in the 2 seems to more certain now. And although 10 % does not seem like much, it is a big problem..

The bottom of this article goes into some detail.

After 2 years in space, the James Webb telescope has broken cosmology. Can it be fixed?

For decades, measurements of the universe's expansion have suggested a disparity known as the Hubble tension, which threatens to break cosmology as we know it. Now, on the eve of its second anniversary, a new finding by the James Webb Space Telescope has only entrenched the mystery.

www.yahoo.com

Yes, like I said, the differences are statistically significant.

That said, when the second population of cepheid variable starts was discovered, it immediately halved the value of the Hubble parameter. I would not find it surprising if the distance ladder needs to be refined at the 10% level.

On the other hand, and this is something people have suggested before, perhaps the parameter changes time, so we are simply getting different values at different times. That would happen if, for example, dark energy changes density on expansion. This is a fairly minor tweak, but could explain these measurements. Of course, that would have to be verified in other ways.

Now, as far as this thread goes, would any possible fixes make the universe younger than, say, 10 billion years old? No way. These are relatively small differences that could change our understanding of the physics of the early universe, but won’t make biblical stories any more plausible.

Once again, tensions at this level have occurred multiple times in cosmology and have been resolved, usually in a decade or so. Let’s wait and see.

 

[gnostic]

But the Bible does Not say six 24-hr. days. ALL of the 6 creative days are summed up by the word 'day' at Genesis 2:4

it doesn’t say anything about each day being 24 hours, but it summed up each day being comprised of “evening and morning“.

And even though it say nothing about “evening and morning“, it does say the 7th day followed the 6th day, so it is safe to assume the 7th day would also comprised of an “evening” & a “morning”. In the Jewish calendar and custom, is that each new day starts at the beginning of the evening, not at midnight.

the day don’t comprise of years, centuries or ”a thousand of years”.

beside that the Genesis 1 and 2:1-4, is not really history of the earth, but just allegory for the law of sabbath, the day of rest, in Exodus 16.

But neither Genesis 1 creation, nor Genesis 2, are science or history, especially when these two myths contradict each other in the order of creation:

• While Genesis 1 say humans were created last, after the creation of vegetation, after fishes & birds and after land animals.
• Genesis 2 say human was created before vegetation and before animals.

The inconsistencies of the order of creations, showed that they were written by 2 different groups of people.

plus saying the Earth was created before the sun, revealed that people who wrote that have no understanding about about nature, especially that the birds fly in the same ”firmament of the heaven” or the “sky”, as the sun and moon.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

it doesn’t say anything about each day being 24 hours, but it summed up each day being comprised of “evening and morning“.
And even though it say nothing about “evening and morning“, it does say the 7th day followed the 6th day, so it is safe to assume the 7th day would also comprised of an “evening” & a “morning”. In the Jewish calendar and custom, is that each new day starts at the beginning of the evening, not at midnight.
the day don’t comprise of years, centuries or ”a thousand of years”.
beside that the Genesis 1 and 2:1-4, is not really history of the earth, but just allegory for the law of sabbath, the day of rest, in Exodus 16.
But neither Genesis 1 creation, nor Genesis 2, are science or history, especially when these two myths contradict each other in the order of creation:

• While Genesis 1 say humans were created last, after the creation of vegetation, after fishes & birds and after land animals.
• Genesis 2 say human was created before vegetation and before animals.

The inconsistencies of the order of creations, showed that they were written by 2 different groups of people.
plus saying the Earth was created before the sun, revealed that people who wrote that have no understanding about about nature, especially that the birds fly in the same ”firmament of the heaven” or the “sky”, as the sun and moon.

Grandfather's Day is comprised of years. So, the single word 'day ' at Genesis 2:4 is more than a 24 hr. day.
Good point above about the 'Genesis account Not really history of earth' because the creative 6 days is Not dealing about matter or material but about arranging and preparing Earth for mankind to inhabit the Earth.

I find two (2) creative accounts in Genesis: (two (2) different views presented at Gen. 1:25-2:7; Gen. 2:18-22 )
The 1st Genesis account is constructed chronologically divided into 6 consecutive days (time periods )
The 2nd Genesis account is written in order of topical importance for us.
After the short prologue, Genesis chapter 2 adds some details (which do Not conflict) but just takes up at a point in the 3rd creative day adding somethings in addition to the account . ALL created before day 7.

No where does it say that Earth was created before the Sun. KJV uses the word firmament which is the expanse above Earth.

 

[gnostic]

@SavedByTheLord

The JWST doesn’t point to the ΛCDM model of the Big Bang theory being “broken” or “dead”.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) still occurred during the Recombination Epoch, which started around 378,000 years after the Big Bang, or redshift z=1100. This radiation occurred because the electrons were bounded to the ionized atoms for the very first time, ca the photon decoupled from electrically neutral atoms. What the WMAP & the Planck mapped out of the cmbr, is that first light during that photon decoupling.

This Universe is still happened 13.798 billion years old, in which Planck confirmed the WMAP‘s results, remained unchanged with the JWST. Everything else PRIOR TO the CMBR also remains unchanged: from the initial expansion, to the Inflationary epoch, to the formation of the fundamental particles and to the Primordial Nucleosynthesis - all of these remained unchanged.

So for you and other science illiterates to claimed that the BB theory is broken, only demonstrated that you are all dishonestly misrepresenting the JWST data, as well as misrepresenting the ΛCDM model.

What happened after the Recombination Epoch (including the CMBR), was the following events:

• the Dark Ages,
• the Reionization,
• the formations of large structures, which included -
  • the formations of stars
  • the formation of galaxies

The duration of the Dark Ages, to the beginning of the formation of stars & galaxies was only roughly estimated by the ΛCDM in the late 1990s, somewhere between 200 million to 1 billion years after the Big Bang. It was no surprises that the JWST would revise some of the results from HST (Hubble Space Telescope) and other observations, as well make new discoveries that would revise ΛCDM.

That’s a good thing - to challenge the original proposals of the ΛCDM.

in any case, nothing in the JWST discoveries support your incessant claims that the Universe and the Earth being “6000 years old”…the JWST actually & soundly squashed your 6000-year-old claims.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I put it to you that no one knows everything and claiming they do is delusional. Thanks for the passive aggressive ending, it always makes me chuckle..

Except for God No one knows everything. Jesus even says so at Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7
But Jesus knows what is religious truth (Jn 17:17) that Scripture is religious truth.
Not a passive-aggressive ending but a beautiful new beginning as found at Revelation 22:2 because there is coming ' healing ' for earth's nations.

 

[gnostic]

And btw, @SavedByTheLord

Your 6000-year-old Earth & Universe are also crumbled, because the Milky Way’s larger major neighbour - the Andromeda Galaxy - is about over 2 million light years away.

we shouldn’t be seeing that galaxy naked eye (without the telescope) in our night sky if the the Universe was only 6000 years old.

The first astronomer to describe Andromeda as the little cloud, the Persian astronomer Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi in 964, shouldn’t be able to see it in his time, if the Universe was only 6000 years old.

 

[gnostic]

Except for God No one knows everything.

if God knew everything, then he wouldn’t have planted the Tree of Knowledge where Adam and Eve couldn’t eat the forbidden fruit.

If God knew everything, he wouldn’t have created humans in the first place, especially when he decided to wipe them out later with the Flood.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

if God knew everything, then he wouldn’t have planted the Tree of Knowledge where Adam and Eve couldn’t eat the forbidden fruit.
If God knew everything, he wouldn’t have created humans in the first place, especially when he decided to wipe them out later with the Flood.

However, because of the 'gift of free-will choices' God would Not go back on His word.
ALL the angels did Not rebel but the ones who 'freely chose' to follow Satan - James 1:13-15
Why the ' wipe out ' was because of major violence - Genesis 6:11 B
Those violent people would have wiped all the righteous ones off the face of the Earth.
Earth was created for humble meek people, Not violent people. ( Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26; Matt. 5:5)
True, at this time the number of the great crowd of Rev. 7:14,9 is an un-known number yet.
But the number will become known at the coming ' time of separation ' as found at Matthew 25:31-34,37
We all freely choose.

 

[gnostic]

However, because of the 'gift of free-will choices' God would Not go back on His word.

gift?

they were cursed & punished for choosing. How is that a gift?

it sounds more like god being petty tyrant.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

gift? they were cursed & punished for choosing. How is that a gift?
it sounds more like god being petty tyrant.

Gift because they ( includes us ) are Not created as a robot, an automaton who have No choice.
Free-will choice gives us the opportunity to think. Think for one's self who we would like as Sovereign over us.
In other words, No one is forced to worship God.
If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule (and Jesus' New Commandment - Jn 13:34-35) what would the world be like ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

gift? they were cursed & punished for choosing. How is that a gift? it sounds more like god being petty tyrant.

They were forewarned and they chose ' death ' - Gen. 2:17
They were Not forced to choose ' death ' .
Just like we are Not forced to break the Law.
Turning aside from the known Law makes you a law breaker by choice.
Turning aside from divine Law is imitating the opposition: aka Satan.
God did tell what was good but Eve chose to experience the bad, have knowledge of the bad.
Death was the bad - Gen. 2:17
Satan's pitch to Eve implied that Eve would Not die. Be better off being her own goddess but Adam was Not deceived.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Yes, like I said, the differences are statistically significant.

That said, when the second population of cepheid variable starts was discovered, it immediately halved the value of the Hubble parameter. I would not find it surprising if the distance ladder needs to be refined at the 10% level.

On the other hand, and this is something people have suggested before, perhaps the parameter changes time, so we are simply getting different values at different times. That would happen if, for example, dark energy changes density on expansion. This is a fairly minor tweak, but could explain these measurements. Of course, that would have to be verified in other ways.

Now, as far as this thread goes, would any possible fixes make the universe younger than, say, 10 billion years old? No way. These are relatively small differences that could change our understanding of the physics of the early universe, but won’t make biblical stories any more plausible.

Once again, tensions at this level have occurred multiple times in cosmology and have been resolved, usually in a decade or so. Let’s wait and see.

All of these evidences are showing that the Big Bang never happened.
The difference in the Hubble constant should be called the Hubble contradiction and many point out that that too is a crisis for the standard cosmology.

 

[gnostic]

They were forewarned and they chose ' death ' - Gen. 2:17
They were Not forced to choose ' death ' .
Just like we are Not forced to break the Law.
Turning aside from the known Law makes you a law breaker by choice.
Turning aside from divine Law is imitating the opposition: aka Satan.
God did tell what was good but Eve chose to experience the bad, have knowledge of the bad.
Death was the bad - Gen. 2:17
Satan's pitch to Eve implied that Eve would Not die. Be better off being her own goddess but Adam was Not deceived.

Sorry, your argument of breaking the law, is ridiculous, when they were created, they were created without knowing right and wrong, because according to the story, the only way to know right from wrong is to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So you really cannot expect them to know if God or the serpent is telling the truth, if they haven't eaten the fruit.

It would seem the story of Adam and Eve was in a no-win situation...especially when God put the Tree in middle of Eden. It would seem that God wanted them to fail.

If God truly didn't want them to take the fruit then couldn't God place the angel with the sword to guard the Tree?

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Sorry, your argument of breaking the law, is ridiculous, when they were created, they were created without knowing right and wrong, because according to the story, the only way to know right from wrong is to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So you really cannot expect them to know if God or the serpent is telling the truth, if they haven't eaten the fruit.

It would seem the story of Adam and Eve was in a no-win situation...especially when God put the Tree in middle of Eden. It would seem that God wanted them to fail.

If God truly didn't want them to take the fruit then couldn't God place the angel with the sword to guard the Tree?

They were given one law.
Don’t eat from the tree of knowledge.
And they both broke the one commandment that they were given. Thus they sinned.

 

[Mock Turtle]

They were given one law.
Don’t eat from the tree of knowledge.
And they both broke the one commandment that they were given. Thus they sinned.

As you are presumably, by using the products of this knowledge.