The Big Bang Theory is dead.

[gnostic]

They were given one law.
Don’t eat from the tree of knowledge.
And they both broke the one commandment that they were given. Thus they sinned.

and THEY STILL WOULDN’T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, WITHOUT EATING THE FRUIT, SO THEY WERE WRONGLY PUNISHED.

The Genesis morality is illogical, draconian and petty. Only an autocratic tyrant would punish the innocent, for something what they couldn’t possibly know right and wrong.

The theists who think that the story is about free-will are just making apologetic excuses, and kidding themselves.

Although Adam and Eve were created with adult bodies, they didnt live for very long before they ate the fruit that were forbidden, so as their experience in life was short, they were practically children, inexperienced, and definitely no experience with deceits and death.

With that in mind, how would Adam or Eve know the serpent was false or God was false?

And, more importantly, can you answer this question, @SavedByTheLord :

if you were to substitute adults (Adam & Eve) with toddlers in Genesis 2 & 3, would you think God would still be just & loving, or evil, if toddlers were to die for eating the fruit that god had forbidden them from eating?​

 

[wellwisher]

@SavedByTheLord

The JWST doesn’t point to the ΛCDM model of the Big Bang theory being “broken” or “dead”.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) still occurred during the Recombination Epoch, which started around 378,000 years after the Big Bang, or redshift z=1100. This radiation occurred because the electrons were bounded to the ionized atoms for the very first time, ca the photon decoupled from electrically neutral atoms. What the WMAP & the Planck mapped out of the cmbr, is that first light during that photon decoupling.

This Universe is still happened 13.798 billion years old, in which Planck confirmed the WMAP‘s results, remained unchanged with the JWST. Everything else PRIOR TO the CMBR also remains unchanged: from the initial expansion, to the Inflationary epoch, to the formation of the fundamental particles and to the Primordial Nucleosynthesis - all of these remained unchanged.

So for you and other science illiterates to claimed that the BB theory is broken, only demonstrated that you are all dishonestly misrepresenting the JWST data, as well as misrepresenting the ΛCDM model.

What happened after the Recombination Epoch (including the CMBR), was the following events:

• the Dark Ages,
• the Reionization,
• the formations of large structures, which included -
  • the formations of stars
  • the formation of galaxies

The duration of the Dark Ages, to the beginning of the formation of stars & galaxies was only roughly estimated by the ΛCDM in the late 1990s, somewhere between 200 million to 1 billion years after the Big Bang. It was no surprises that the JWST would revise some of the results from HST (Hubble Space Telescope) and other observations, as well make new discoveries that would revise ΛCDM.

That’s a good thing - to challenge the original proposals of the ΛCDM.

in any case, nothing in the JWST discoveries support your incessant claims that the Universe and the Earth being “6000 years old”…the JWST actually & soundly squashed your 6000-year-old claims.

There are two ways to account for the time differences between Genesis and the Big Bang/Evolutionary theories. The first is connected to Relativity. If God was in a reference, close to the speed of light; God is light, he would be like the moving twin in the twin paradox. His clock would be going much slower. As such, one God day could be a billion earth years in our reference. The current science models time from the POV of the stationary twin; earth, and assumes the moving twin is aging the same way. The stationary twin will be surpassed when his moving twin returns.

We use the earth day as our reference of convenience, even though there was no earth reference during the first 7-8 billion years of the universe. The earth is not that old. Our earth day is based on the sun, which is also not as old as the universe. This could cause problems and create time illusions.

If you assume there was a primordial atom for the BB; singularity, from which all the mass and gravity of the universe will appear, there would also initially be extreme General Relativity based time dilation in the early universe, so earth reference time would not apply. The odd spacing of days in Genesis, appear to take into account an observational reference that goes from extreme time dilation; longer duration events, to get shorter and shorter time scale events, until one finally reaches the earth reference; rest day 7.

The other alternative way to explain the time difference is to look at science evidence for what happened 6000 years ago. The two critical changes were the invention of written language and the formation of sustainable civilization. These two factors would alter nature and evolution, extending natural selection to include manmade selection; breaking the age old connection of the pre-humans to nature; loss of the tree of life. The change would favor man made knowledge and selection; tree of knowledge of good and evil.

At 6000 year ago, a new clock starts, for a new type of human with will and choice, apart from natural instinct. The Julian calendar is 2023 years old and the zero marks a changing of the times. The 6000 years ago time=0, appears to be connected to a secondary center of human consciousness appearing, called the ego. The ego has will and choice apart from the primary center connected to instinct; inner self, which is guided by genetic based instinct. But the tree of life is seal, meaning access to the inner self is still out of reach to the ego, less the mess up the operating system with knowledge of good and evil. That is not how instinct works. It is 3-D and 4-D or spatially integrated in space and time instead of temporal fad for the ego.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, your argument of breaking the law, is ridiculous, when they were created, they were created without knowing right and wrong, because according to the story, the only way to know right from wrong is to eat from the tree of knowledge.
So you really cannot expect them to know if God or the serpent is telling the truth, if they haven't eaten the fruit.
It would seem the story of Adam and Eve was in a no-win situation...especially when God put the Tree in middle of Eden. It would seem that God wanted them to fail.
If God truly didn't want them to take the fruit then couldn't God place the angel with the sword to guard the Tree?

Please notice God already educated forwarning Adam as to what was right and wrong at Genesis 2:17
The tree of knowledge of both good and bad, right and wrong.
They could live forever as long as they did Not eat from that one forbidden tree.
How many trees on Earth ___________ Only one tree belonged to God.
If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and said come over anytime you want but just don't eat from one particular tree.
Would you consider it wrong of your generous neighbor to forbid the eating just from one particular tree ?
So, out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God. A&E broke God's law.
Eve was deceived - 1st Timothy 2:14 - but Adam was Not deceived.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and THEY STILL WOULDN’T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, WITHOUT EATING THE FRUIT, SO THEY WERE WRONGLY PUNISHED.
The Genesis morality is illogical, draconian and petty. Only an autocratic tyrant would punish the innocent, for something what they couldn’t possibly know right and wrong.
The theists who think that the story is about free-will are just making apologetic excuses, and kidding themselves.
Although Adam and Eve were created with adult bodies, they didnt live for very long before they ate the fruit that were forbidden, so as their experience in life was short, they were practically children, inexperienced, and definitely no experience with deceits and death.
With that in mind, how would Adam or Eve know the serpent was false or God was false?
And, more importantly, can you answer this question, @SavedByTheLord :

if you were to substitute adults (Adam & Eve) with toddlers in Genesis 2 & 3, would you think God would still be just & loving, or evil, if toddlers were to die for eating the fruit that god had forbidden them from eating?​

A&E were Not toddlers.
They had plenty. Kind of like a huge warehouse chock full of what they needed.
It was Not as if a single bowl of candy was there to tempt them.
Adam was taught the Law at Gen. 2:17.
Eve was deceived but Not Adam - 1st Timothy 2:14

Just because the tree was in the middle does Not mean there were No surrounding trees.
As with a grove of fruit trees all the same fruit, but just one tree among them singled out to Not touch it.

 

[John53]

They were given one law.
Don’t eat from the tree of knowledge.
And they both broke the one commandment that they were given. Thus they sinned.

Thus refuting "free will".

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Thus refuting "free will".

I believe in free will.
I am not a Calvinist.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I believe in free will.
I am not a Calvinist.

As long as everyone believes and behaves the same as you do?

 

[John53]

I believe in free will.
I am not a Calvinist.

With eternal torture for anyone who doesn't agree... you have a strange understanding of free will.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

With eternal torture for anyone who doesn't agree... you have a strange understanding of free will.

When you see these posts do you get this sense that you are seeing pigeon chess taken to the extreme?

 

[SavedByTheLord]

That is why i

With eternal torture for anyone who doesn't agree... you have a strange understanding of free will.

That Is why it is called sin because people break God’s law of their own free law.

 

[John53]

That is why i

That Is why it is called sin because people break God’s law of their own free law.

And what free will does an abused child have? Your god favours the free will of the abuser?

 

[Esteban X]

That is why i

That Is why it is called sin because people break God’s law of their own free law.

Free will is evidence of the non-existence of God, or at least his irrelevance. If free will, God is not omniscient; if so, he is not God. At least not any god worth worshiping

 

[gnostic]

A&E were Not toddlers.
They had plenty. Kind of like a huge warehouse chock full of what they needed.
It was Not as if a single bowl of candy was there to tempt them.
Adam was taught the Law at Gen. 2:17.
Eve was deceived but Not Adam - 1st Timothy 2:14

Just because the tree was in the middle does Not mean there were No surrounding trees.
As with a grove of fruit trees all the same fruit, but just one tree among them singled out to Not touch it.

i did say they were created with adult bodies, and they have already have the abilities to walk and talk, so they are not toddlers.

However, they haven't been living long in eden, before the event which they disobeyed God.

So not very long, which would means their experience in life, less than a week? Less than a month? A year?

I was talking about the length of time, and the amount of experience each would have in that time, before eating those fruits that were forbidden to them. Certainly not long enough to witness death. And if they haven’t witnessed death, how could they possibly know what death mean when God told Adam?

Genesis 2 & 3 doesn’t say how long, but if Eve was so easily persuaded or manipulated to eat the fruit, then she wasn’t old at all.

And as I am talking about the amount of experience each would have in the amount of time he or she have lived, then a comparison to them being like children is apt.

realistically the entire Eden event is a total myth, because only in myth, human was created as adult without being born naturally. From the moment they were created, they were already adult bodies, automatically being able to talk. That’s not natural.

he from the soil of earth, with body of adult…unnatural.

she from Adam’s rib, already a “woman”…again, unnatural.

Hence…IT IS A MYTH!

Adam and Eve may already skip learning, but each Ofer experience were in matters of days, so they were children, and like children, you can warn them all you like, they will disobey, because they don’t have the experience, nor the capacity to know what‘s right or wrong. If you don’t understand nature don’t work the Genesis say, then you’re really naïve, because you already buy the BS of this story.

 

[Polymath257]

All of these evidences are showing that the Big Bang never happened.

Not even close. These results are showing that we need to learn more about *how* it happened, but the fact that it happened is still not being touched by these results.

The difference in the Hubble constant should be called the Hubble contradiction and many point out that that too is a crisis for the standard cosmology.

Only in the popular press that wants to dramatize this stuff.

This is the type of thing scientists *live* for! Those cracks that show things we need to learn along with, perhaps, a few hints about what might actually be the case in those details.

The universe is expanding. It has been so for about 13-15 billion years. The Earth is about 1/3 of that age.

NOTHING in these results puts those conclusions into doubt. The question is whether, for example, the age of the universe is closer to 13.7 or 14.2 billion years, whether the Hubble parameter is closer to 67 or 73. The parameter is still there, so the universe is still expanding (and has been for billions of years).

As an analogy. You seem to be upset that we don't know the height of a building to within a few floors when it is 100 stories tall. You, on the other hand, are advocating that it is closer to being 1/80 of an inch tall.

 

[Polymath257]

They were given one law.
Don’t eat from the tree of knowledge.

Funny how God likes to keep us ignorant.

Hmmm...also wanted to prevent immortality.

And they both broke the one commandment that they were given. Thus they sinned.

But they could not have *known* it was evil until after partaking.

 

[YoursTrue]

it doesn’t say anything about each day being 24 hours, but it summed up each day being comprised of “evening and morning“.

And even though it say nothing about “evening and morning“, it does say the 7th day followed the 6th day, so it is safe to assume the 7th day would also comprised of an “evening” & a “morning”. In the Jewish calendar and custom, is that each new day starts at the beginning of the evening, not at midnight.

the day don’t comprise of years, centuries or ”a thousand of years”.

beside that the Genesis 1 and 2:1-4, is not really history of the earth, but just allegory for the law of sabbath, the day of rest, in Exodus 16.

But neither Genesis 1 creation, nor Genesis 2, are science or history, especially when these two myths contradict each other in the order of creation:

• While Genesis 1 say humans were created last, after the creation of vegetation, after fishes & birds and after land animals.
• Genesis 2 say human was created before vegetation and before animals.

The inconsistencies of the order of creations, showed that they were written by 2 different groups of people.

plus saying the Earth was created before the sun, revealed that people who wrote that have no understanding about about nature, especially that the birds fly in the same ”firmament of the heaven” or the “sky”, as the sun and moon.

Have you ever thought that maybe there's a reason the 7th day does not have an evening and a morning to it? Further, would you think that God takes every 7th day off each week? I don't want to tell you what I think right now, I just wonder what you think. Does God take every 7th day off?

 

[YoursTrue]

Funny how God likes to keep us ignorant.

Hmmm...also wanted to prevent immortality.

But they could not have *known* it was evil until after partaking.

The fruit wasn't "evil." Their action was.

 

[YoursTrue]

Funny how God likes to keep us ignorant.

Hmmm...also wanted to prevent immortality.

But they could not have *known* it was evil until after partaking.

He didn't keep Adam and Eve ignorant. Frankly, do you know good from evil? Who sets up the conditions, by the way? They had one commandment. They did not obey. If you knew that you should not go beyond the speed limit or else you'd get a ticket, if you did not want a ticket, you'd obey most likely. But if you didn't care about getting a ticket, and some people do not, can't complain about getting a ticket.

 

[YoursTrue]

Funny how God likes to keep us ignorant.

Hmmm...also wanted to prevent immortality.

But they could not have *known* it was evil until after partaking.

The Bible says Eve was deceived, I believe. Adam was not. He KNEW he would die. She did not think she would die but listened to the reasoning presented by the serpent, later id'd as the Devil. She found out she was wrong. He chose to die along with her.

 

[gnostic]

Have you ever thought that maybe there's a reason the 7th day does not have an evening and a morning to it?

Exodus 16, YoursTrue.

you are still ignoring the sabbath.

The sabbath is no longer in duration than that of any other day of the week - in which a new day start at the beginning of an evening.

here, in the west, with modern clock, our day starts at midnight. With Judaism, Jews begin their new day at the beginning of evening, eg sunset…and that include sabbath.

i am just following what Genesis say about the 7days, especially with regards to “there was evening and there was morning”, a cycle of period of “day”. You’re the one trying to interpreting the day as something else completely. You are the one taking Genesis 2:2 completely out of context with your clumsy interpretation.

Seriously do you really ignore the context of what highlighted:

“On the sixth day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done.”​

The context “on the sixth day…on the seventh day” tell us the seventh day is no longer or shorter than the 6th day, as Genesis 1:31 says “And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” The context is very obvious, but of course, you will ignore that with whatever absurd claim you like to make up.

Further, would you think that God takes every 7th day off each week? I don't want to tell you what I think right now, I just wonder what you think. Does God take every 7th day off?

And now you are being absurd again.

The laws or the torah were for Israelites and their ancestors, the Jews, to follow.

The law of sabbath were custom to benefit the Jews, not to benefit God.

You should know this better than me, since you are the one claiming to being a Jew while growing up, before your conversion to Jehovah’s Witnesses…or were you lying to us about the “Jewish” business?