The Big Bang Theory is dead.

[Esteban X]

They have a video the chromosomes fusing in an actual primate many eons ago?

If you find a tree lying fallen in a forest you can be certain it was once standing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

While conjectures may be made, as far as I understand, humans and chimpanzees, gorillas, monkeys and the like in the so-called ape category are said to have an Unknown Common Ancestor. I hope hope hope you will not tell me the common ancestor is known. puleeze, I'm almost begging you not to tell me that. But if you do it's known for an absolute (and I mean absolute without wavering forever) certainty -- ok, sorry but the offering of the opinion down a few more notches of credibility in my opinion.

Determining we share a common ancestor is different from identifying that common ancestor.

You should be able to understand that.
Let's give a simple example.

There's a tribe of people somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
Another tribe goes in and commits genocide and disolves all the bodies in acid.
The day after a UN convoy visits the scene and finds a bunch of toddlers and babies that were hidden during the attack which survived.
2 of the babies are send to different countries for adoption.
Years later through some DNA testing program, they find out they are brothers.
So now we have determined they share a common ancestor.
We don't know who they were.

So there you go....
We determined they share a common ancestor.
We can't identify who they were.


Conclusion: we don't need to be able to identify the common ancestor in order to know that there is a common ancestor.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

OK, I believe our discussion can be basically concluded because it seems from your comments that you are set to oppose anything in the Bible.

The exact opposite is true.

It is YOU who is set to oppose anything that contradicts your interpretation of the bible.
What the bible says is pretty much irrelevant to @Polymath257 when it comes to evolutionary history.
If the evidence were in agreement with whatever the bible says, @Polymath257 would have no problem accepting it.

Unlike you, he doesn't pretend to have the answers before asking and investigating the questions. That's what you do.

I have a different viewpoint and I find scientific theories and statements to be open to revision often based on methodological changes and opinion as to data.

Yeah, it's called LEARNING.
You say this like it is a "flaw" of science, while it is actually a VIRTUE.
It's why science works.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As far as you and obviously some others are concerned.

No. As far as the evidence is concerned.
This is a matter of facts, not a matter of opinions or beliefs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, I have refuted evolution yet again

How? By asking dumb, ignorant questions and then refusing to read the answers?
Willful ignorance is not an argument nor a disproof of anything, except the statement that you have a clue.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It does? Can you explain that? I'd love to read about that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That you say none of it is conjecture makes me wonder about your assessment of things. My faith is not blind but reasonable, just as you believe your faith is reasonable and not blind. You have faith that scientists are able to explain the process of the theory of evolution. Even if their assessments of the evidence change from time to time, right?

Science doesn't require faith. it has evidence.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

How? By asking dumb, ignorant questions and then refusing to read the answers?
Willful ignorance is not an argument nor a disproof of anything, except the statement that you have a clue.

By giving several irrefutable proofs.
And of course the questions that I ask are nit dumb or ignorant but to the point.
The answers given by evolutionists, when I even get an answer, are not rational or real answers,

 

[ratiocinator]

By giving several irrefutable proofs.

All your supposed 'proofs' were ridiculous and trivially easy to refute. Burying your head in the sand and not looking at the answers does make them go away.

And of course the questions that I ask are nit dumb or ignorant but to the point.

They demonstrate astounding levels of ignorance of both science and logic.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

ok. we have, according to the lecturer 23 chromosomes from mom and 23 from dad. 46 altogether. Then he says we have two fewer chromosomes than the other great apes. Chimps, gorillas and orangatans have 46 chromosomes. He then says that everybody in the room is MISSING a pair of chromosomes. Missing? Hmm, I wonder -- missing?? Yes, he seems to say. And again I say humans with that so-called missing pair of chromosomes have the ability to train doctors, invent microscopes, reading, writing and arithmetic.
OK, then goes on to postulate (yes I say postulate because he says "what must have happened") that there was fusion somewhere. Now this is kind of where I stop following for a while because it truly doesn't make sense.

If you would have continued following, you would found out that we aren't missing the extra pair at all.
You also would have found out that the "what must have happened" is a conditional prediction based on "if evolution occurred, THEN what must have happened is a fusion".

If you would have continued following with attention, you would have then found out that the evidence is that that is exactly what happened on how we know it happened.

You have just demonstrated to all of us how your dogmatism puts blinders on your eyes and stuffs your ears.
**mod edit**

I suggest you watch the clip again with attention this time till the end. Surely you are able to stay focused for 4 minutes.

Why doesn't it make sense to me? Because where and when did that so-called fusion occur? (He gives a long mathematical list.)

He gives no "mathematical list". Instead, he gives you the exact location of where the fusion happens. This detail just goes to show he factual this is. We know exactly what happened. And, as he said: it's testable, it's demonstrable and therefor this is authentic.

Yet the gorillas, chimps and orangatans have 48 chromosomes and are distinctly different from these apes.

Not as distinct as you like to believe.
And if you would have watched the explanation with a speck of attention, you would know that we humans still have all 48 chromosomes. 2 of them are just attached to eachother and we know the exact fusion site. It is also explained in the clip HOW we know this.

Demonstrable, testable, authentic. Fact.

Now he does say he's a theist but this revelation about the fusion tells him something about our ancestry. The discovery of a fusion with one pair of chromosomes does not lead to discovering a common ancestor among all of these types of distinct apes as far as I see.

Willfull ignorance.
It's a prediction of evolution and when tested, it checks out.
And it's not like we don't have precedents of chromosomal fusion. We KNOW this occurs in nature.
And here we have black on white evidence it happened in our ancestors.

Your reaction? Closing your eyes, stuffing your ears and screaming "lalalala - don't believe you - lalala".

Apparently this purported common ancestor has not been identified or found.

As explained previously, there is no need to identify an ancestor in order to determine that there was one.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How can we be missing a pair of chromosomes if we are complete? Are we complete?

First, the comment about "complete" makes no sense.
Secondly, we are not missing it. It didn't disappear. It fused with another. We know the exact fusion site. It's still there. It didn't disappear.

Maybe it was just a term, but can't figure how anyway we are "missing" a pair.

We aren't. It fused. It's not gone up in smoke. It's still there, attached to chromosome nr 2. We know the exact fusion site.

Sounds pretty good to me though that humans can add, subtract, build hospitals, read and write with those missing chromosomes. And of course, gorillas, etc. may not feel the need to do those things. Right? OK, when I was a teenager I loved to climb trees. I wouldn't mind swinging from trees, but I am what I am. Would I like to compose music, play an instrument AND swing from trees? Maybe. But I gotta get used to being in this body and concentrate on what I can do.

You should really let go of this nonsense argument that's been shown to be nonsense dozens of times.
Humans 200 years ago weren't building smartphones.
So what?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If I believe that, I'd have to believe the conclusions from what scientists view as evidence.

Ah, right.
And we wouldn't want that, would we?
No.... accepting science is far to threatening to your religious beliefs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Except that it's conjecture as to a common ancestor.

It's not.
And you actually by implication acknowledged it is not.
You quote @SavedByTheLord 's question regarding chromosome count of gorilla's vs humans and said it was a very good question indeed. As if you agreed it was a big challenge to evolution. How could we share ancestors if the chromosome count is different? That's why you thought it was a good question.

And then it gets explained to you EXACTLY why that is, and how it actually in fact even matches the predictions of evolution.
And instantly you turn around and dismiss it with what can only be called willfully ignorant hand-waving.

But yeah, at least you are being consistent with your acknowledgement of last weak: you will NOT accepting anything that goes against your religious faith.
You will happily hook your support to ANY evidence you feel like being a challenge to evolution. But when that very thing is then shown to actually be evidence FOR evolution instead, it gets instantly dismissed - for the sole reason that it contradicts your dogmatic beliefs.


Even you should be able to see how this is just an intellectually dishonest approach.

We're missing a set of chromosomes...says the scientist. They disappeared, or went the way of all flesh or the mystery of the missing set.

And then he goes on to explain how they aren't missing at all, how they didn't disappear at all.
But you seem to have blocked out that part.

Willful ignorance again.

And yet along with those so-called missing chromosomes we as humans can read, write, figure decimals and things like quantum physics.

And yet with the same DNA, people only 200 years ago were traveling by horse instead of car.
So what.

I guess the extra chromosomes in gorillas, chimps and orangatans

They don't have an "extra" chromosome. If you actually whatched the clip with a speck of attention, you would know this.
The chromosome isn't missing. It didn't disappear. It didn't go up in smoke.
It merely fused with another. It's still there. We know the exact fusion site.

Or maybe they figure without telling humans, hey, why bother with ruining the atomosphere or building bicycles? Let those humans with missing chromosomes do it. Those missing chromosomes sure make a difference.

No chromosome is "missing".

Are you incapable of learning? Sounds like it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am not particulary wondering about how he figured the fusion.

Yes, we know already that you don't care about evidence, learning or the truth.
You only care about arguing strawman and remaining willfully ignorant in order to uphold your religious beliefs.

Believe me, we know. It's extremely apparant.

Like I say, what a difference a fusion makes...

It supports evolution theory.

and again -- no discovery of that unknown common ancestor, perhaps as I have said it went away in a tsunami or earthquake...

We don't need to be able to identify the ancestor to determine an ancestor existed.

Chimps remain chimpsn, gorillas remain gorillas and of course, humans remain humans.

Ow, are we back to that old cow?
How many times have I explained to you how this is wrong?

 

[Mock Turtle]

They have a video the chromosomes fusing in an actual primate many eons ago?

No videos of Jesus on the cross either - so what?

 

[Polymath257]

But the lecturer said they are missing. The gorillas, chimps and orangutans hae 48 chromosomes. Only humans have 46.

And did you listen to the rest? We have 46 because pairs merged. So, two pairs of chromosomes merged to give one pair.

Why do you consistently ignore this?

 

[Polymath257]

It's not.
And you actually by implication acknowledged it is not.
You quote @SavedByTheLord 's question regarding chromosome count of gorilla's vs humans and said it was a very good question indeed. As if you agreed it was a big challenge to evolution. How could we share ancestors if the chromosome count is different? That's why you thought it was a good question.

And then it gets explained to you EXACTLY why that is, and how it actually in fact even matches the predictions of evolution.
And instantly you turn around and dismiss it with what can only be called willfully ignorant hand-waving.

But yeah, at least you are being consistent with your acknowledgement of last weak: you will NOT accepting anything that goes against your religious faith.
You will happily hook your support to ANY evidence you feel like being a challenge to evolution. But when that very thing is then shown to actually be evidence FOR evolution instead, it gets instantly dismissed - for the sole reason that it contradicts your dogmatic beliefs.


Even you should be able to see how this is just an intellectually dishonest approach.



And then he goes on to explain how they aren't missing at all, how they didn't disappear at all.
But you seem to have blocked out that part.

Willful ignorance again.



And yet with the same DNA, people only 200 years ago were traveling by horse instead of car.
So what.



They don't have an "extra" chromosome. If you actually whatched the clip with a speck of attention, you would know this.
The chromosome isn't missing. It didn't disappear. It didn't go up in smoke.
It merely fused with another. It's still there. We know the exact fusion site.


No chromosome is "missing".

Are you incapable of learning? Sounds like it.

I'm wondering if the difference between a chromosome and a gene is understood. Or what a centromere is and what it does. Which is why each chromosome only has one. Or what telomeres are.

In other words, for those who don't care about facts, the basic information supporting the conclusion isn't understood. So they feel justified ignoring it instead of actually learning something.

I saw the same difficulty in discussing radioactivity. The difference between an atom, a nucleus, an ion, etc was completely misunderstood, even though it is *basic*.

If you don't grasp the basics, you can't use basic knowledge to reach conclusions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm wondering if the difference between a chromosome and a gene is understood.

I'm wondering if it is even cared about.
I don't think it is.

In other words, for those who don't care about facts, the basic information supporting the conclusion isn't understood

I think it is very much understood. Even by @SavedByTheLord . But just ignored. Willfully.
Dismissed with but a handwave because it doesn't match the a priori dogmatic belief.

They don't care.
They only care about facts when it suits their beliefs.

 

[Polymath257]

I am not particulary wondering about how he figured the fusion. Like I say, what a difference a fusion makes...and again -- no discovery of that unknown common ancestor, perhaps as I have said it went away in a tsunami or earthquake... Leaving their offspring behind. Chimps remain chimpsn, gorillas remain gorillas and of course, humans remain humans. still no trace of that so-called common ancestor.

Well, a fusion means that some ancestor had 48 chromosomes. Two pairs fused and that gives 46 chromosomes, which is what humans have now.

So that answers the 'good question' of why apes have 48 and humans have 46.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, a fusion means that some ancestor had 48 chromosomes. Two pairs fused and that gives 46 chromosomes, which is what humans have now.

So that answers the 'good question' of why apes have 48 and humans have 46.

It hardly answers the question as to what was the "Common Ancestor" of these organisms. What organisms were "fused" and what happened after that.
Furthermore, I can only guess--shall we say--that scientists would have it that somehow along the way, humans and not chimps, gorillas, and orangutans had a need (instead of lol) to develop reading, writing, and arithmetic somewhere along the way.