The birth of the state of Israel and God's promise in the end times

[fantome profane]

So you may say it's a coincidence that humans were able to make it to happen but not necessarily a God's plan.

I said it is not a coincidence. If I plan to have a sandwich for lunch, and then come lunchtime I actually have a sandwich, that is not a coincidence. That is a plan being implemented. A human plan being implemented by a human being.

If I plan to climb a mountain, and then I climb that mountain, that is a difficult plan being implemented by a human being.

Israel was planed by humans and implemented by human beings. Not a coincidence, not "God's plan".

 

[FearGod]

Its written in past tense.

Not exact translation, the verse says (17:5)فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً
((So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.))

It means that the time for the events didn't come yet at the time of the verses.

 

[FearGod]

I said it is not a coincidence. If I plan to have a sandwich for lunch, and then come lunchtime I actually have a sandwich, that is not a coincidence. That is a plan being implemented. A human plan being implemented by a human being.

If I plan to climb a mountain, and then I climb that mountain, that is a difficult plan being implemented by a human being.

Israel was planed by humans and implemented by human beings. Not a coincidence, not "God's plan".

I don't know how you compare a plan to eat a sandwich to the creation of a nation after 1500 years or even after
2000 years according to the Gospel.

 

[Shad]

Not exact translation, the verse says (17:5)فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً
((So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.))

It means that the time for the events didn't come yet at the time of the verses.

That is still past tense, roused is past tense for rouse.

 

[Tumah]

Not exact translation, the verse says (17:5)فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً
((So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.))

It means that the time for the events didn't come yet at the time of the verses.

I'll have to take your word for it, since your new translation also appears to be written in past tense to my non-Arabic speaking eyes.
To me it looks like the passage is discussing the destruction of the First Temple, then a return from exile and a Second Temple (called the mosque of Jerusalem) and its destruction. Which brings us to the exile we are in now.
But if you say its written in the future tense, then I guess it is.

 

[FearGod]

I'll have to take your word for it, since your new translation also appears to be written in past tense to my non-Arabic speaking eyes.
To me it looks like the passage is discussing the destruction of the First Temple, then a return from exile and a Second Temple (called the mosque of Jerusalem) and its destruction. Which brings us to the exile we are in now.
But if you say its written in the future tense, then I guess it is.

The verses were analyzed by professionals in the Arabic language and they agree that the verses
are speaking about future events.

Did Israel build a wall other than the recent wall ? it's mentioned in the quran that a wall will be
built between Muslims and the Jews ?

Do the Jews built it to prove the authenticity of the quran.

 

[wizanda]

What do you think?

Think it is the Zionist Bankers peace treaty with Roman Christianity; so though YHVH forewarns it will occur, it is an act of adultery.

Would be good if you asked in the Poll, 'Do you think the Dajjal, Armilus, Anti-Christ has caused it?.... Curious how many we'd get for that.

 

[Jumi]

I don't know how you compare a plan to eat a sandwich to the creation of a nation after 1500 years or even after
2000 years according to the Gospel.

Well my people got independence after almost a 1000 years under foreign countries. Some of the believers even see comparisons there between Israel, but that's the pattern of history. If a people isn't completely destroyed, like the Ancient Egyptians and they remain in a large group there is possibility their country might resurface.

 

[FearGod]

Well my people got independence after almost a 1000 years under foreign countries. Some of the believers even see comparisons there between Israel, but that's the pattern of history. If a people isn't completely destroyed, like the Ancient Egyptians and they remain in a large group there is possibility their country might resurface.

And might not.

 

[Tumah]

The verses were analyzed by professionals in the Arabic language and they agree that the verses
are speaking about future events.

Did Israel build a wall other than the recent wall ? it's mentioned in the quran that a wall will be
built between Muslims and the Jews ?

Do the Jews built it to prove the authenticity of the quran.

Like the Western Wall built 600 years before Muhammad that currently separates between the Muslim al Aqsa Mosque (built when Muhammad and co. came first came to visit) and the Jewish prayer plaza?

Or perhaps it refers to the metaphorical wall that stood for 1,000 years separating the Jews from the Temple mount once the mosque was built?

I don't know. these are just my thoughts.

 

[Jumi]

And might not.

But we did. Despite it being Russia we were under and before that Sweden.

 

[FearGod]

Like the Western Wall built 600 years before Muhammad that currently separates between the Muslim al Aqsa Mosque (built when Muhammad and co. came first came to visit) and the Jewish prayer plaza?

Or perhaps it refers to the metaphorical wall that stood for 1,000 years separating the Jews from the Temple mount once the mosque was built?

I don't know. these are just my thoughts.

Which wall was used to separate Muslims from the Jews during wars in the past if any?

 

[FearGod]

But we did. Despite it being Russia we were under and before that Sweden.

And who prophesied that Finland will be a nation after some thousands of years to come?

 

[Augustus]

The verses were analyzed by professionals in the Arabic language and they agree that the verses
are speaking about future events.

Someone didn't tell the exegetes that then.

What Tumah said is correct. Read your tafsir (or basic Jewish or Roman history)

Unfortunately you misunderstood your own scripture. Look on the bright side though, the world isn't going to end

 

[Tumah]

Which wall was used to separate Muslims from the Jews during wars in the past if any?

Oh new information: the wall will be built during a war.

I don't know of any walls that were built during a war. So I guess that prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Was it just a coincidence or a real promise that had occurred according to God's plan?
What do you think?

God's plan. It is God who raises Nations up, and it is God that tears Nations down.

"He changes times and seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings." Daniel 2:21

 

[InChrist]

I believe the rebirth of the nation of Israel is fulfillment of prophetic scripture as promised by God.

Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children. Isaiah 66:8

It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.

He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11:11-12

 

[FearGod]

Oh new information: the wall will be built during a war.

I don't know of any walls that were built during a war. So I guess that prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

It's built for division.
which wall was built for division between Muslims and Jews? can you mention any?

 

[Tumah]

It's built for division.
which wall was built for division between Muslims and Jews? can you mention any?

During war? Nope.

 

[FearGod]

During war? Nope.

The quran mentioned there will be walls dividing Jews and Muslims and wars will be behind these walls
at the end times, the wars won't be face to face as the Jews will fight from behind these walls.

Just coincidences.