The birth of the state of Israel and God's promise in the end times

[Godobeyer]

Its written in past tense.

Good point , I watched a video explain this issue , just last week !

I think it's coincidence

God most of time used the past tense , because He had no future , so all events are already happened for Him .


Please watch this cool video subtitle in English, talking about the time :

 

[FearGod]

I thought she was just a hair dresser.

I'm sure he learned it, but chose to disregard it, so that he could include the Christians as well.

What does that have to do with anything?

Right. but in the beginning he wasn't a propeht, he was a regular person with a job and he interacted with many Jews and Christians. Then, later when he began to call himself a prophet, is when he decided on what to canonize and what not.

That what you believe which doesn't make it a fact, the same as i believe Jesus
as a prophet of God whereas you and the other Jews disbelieve and that doesn't
mean you're right and the others were wrong.

 

[Tumah]

Good point , I watched a video explain this issue , just last week !

I think it's coincidence

God most of time used the past tense , because He had no future , so all events are already happened for Him .


Please watch this cool video subtitle in English, talking about the time :

So you are saying, the whole Qur'an is written in past tense?

Also, if you say that Allah has no future, you mean that everything is in the past for Him. Then how could He ever be present? You have to say that to Allah there is no difference between the past, present and future. But then the argument you are making here requires further clarification.

 

[Godobeyer]

So you are saying, the whole Qur'an is written in past tense?

Also, if you say that Allah has no future, you mean that everything is in the past for Him. Then how could He ever be present? You have to say that to Allah there is no difference between the past, present and future. But then the argument you are making here requires further clarification.

Not all Quran written in past tense ,

Yes , God has no future and no past , no present , for God all events are already happaned .

He made for us : future and past and present.

I think that you don't watch the video ,right ?

 

[Tumah]

That what you believe which doesn't make it a fact, the same as i believe Jesus
as a prophet of God whereas you and the other Jews disbelieve and that doesn't
mean you're right and the others were wrong.

So you don't think Muhammad ever had a job driving camels when he was younger?

 

[Tumah]

Not all Quran written in past tense ,

Yes , God has no future and no past , no present , for God all events are already happaned .

He made for us : future and past and present.

I think that you don't watch the video ,right ?

No, sorry. I'd rather here how you understand it, then have someone else explain it.

If the whole Qur'an is not written in past tense, then your argument kind of falls apart.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, sorry. I'd rather here how you understand it, then have someone else explain it.

If the whole Qur'an is not written in past tense, then your argument kind of falls apart.

Why my argument is falls apart ?
I told you He made for us "time" , so we had past,present,future . but he had not.

Why should God always used the past tense , when He talking to us for something in "our present" or "future" or our "past" ?

 

[Estro Felino]

Was it just a coincidence or a real promise that had occurred according to God's plan?
What do you think?

Awake, awake o Zion,
Put on your most beautiful garments.
Shake off your dust, rise up, Holy Jerusalem.
Isaiah, 51

 

[Augustus]

Did the Jews build the walls and the Muslims used the siege engines to fight them? when was that ?

Ta’if Campaign is in fact an extension of Hunain Ghazwah; that is because the majority of the defeated troops of Hawazin and Thaqif went into Ta’if with the general commander — Malik bin ‘Awf An-Nasri — and fortified themselves within it. So upon finishing with Hunain Invasion, he gathered the booty at Al-Ji‘ranah in the very month (i.e. Shawwal) and in the eighth year A.H.

A vanguard battalion of a thousand men led by Khalid bin Al-Waleed marched towards At-Ta’if. Whereas the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) proceeded passing through Nakhlah Al- Yamaniyah, Qarn Al-Manazil and through Laiyah. At Laiyah there was a castle that belonged to Malik bin ‘Awf, so the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) gave orders to have it destroyed. He resumed his march till h e got to Ta’if. There he dismounted, camped near its castle and laid siege to the castle inhabitants; but not for long.

How long the siege continued, is still a matter of disagreement. It however stands between 10-20 days.

A lot of arrow-shooting and rock-hurling occurred during the siege. For as soon as the Muslims laid siege round the castle, its people started shooting arrows against them. The arrows were so intense and fierce that they looked as if they had been locusts on the move. A number of Muslims were wounded and twelve were killed.

To be far from the arrow-range, the Muslims had to ascend to a higher location and camped on — i.e. to what is now called At-Ta’if Mosque. The Prophet (peace be upon him) set up a mangonel and shelled the castle. Eventually a gap was made in the castle wall, through which a number of Muslims managed to pass into the castle, sheltered by a wooden tank, with the purpose of setting fire into it. Anyway, the enemy poured down molten hot iron on them. Affected by this theMuslims stepped out of the tank and were again exposed to arrow shooting and consequently some of them were killed.

To force the enemy to surrender, the Prophet (peace be upon him) tended to a war policy of burning and cutting the enemy’s crops. His order was to cut their vineyards and burn them. Seeing that the Muslims started rapidly cutting and burning their vines, they implored the Prophet (peace be upon him) to stop and have mercy on them for the sake of Allâh and out of kinship motives. So the Prophet agreed. When the caller of the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) called out unto people saying “He whosoever descends and steps out of the castle is free.” The sealed nectar.

I'm not sure if the enemies were Jews or not. If this incident is true, using Roman siege engines likely demonstrates that many of the Arabs involved in the conquests were previously confederated troops who fought with the Romans. Arabs had comprised a significant percentage of the Roman allied forces for many years.

Fighting and walls were closely linked in those days though, and many cities and towns were surrounded by them. This is especially true in the Syria/Palestine/Egypt area as it was the boundary between the Persian and Roman empires so many towns had been built with defence in mind.

If the end of times was preceded by large scale war, to someone in the 7th C it would likely involve fighting around walls too.

What are the verses from the Quran that talk of the wall?

 

[FearGod]

So you don't think Muhammad ever had a job driving camels when he was younger?

Why? prophets shouldn't work.
What's wrong if the prophet was working?

 

[Tumah]

Why my argument is falls apart ?
I told you He made for us "time" , so we had past,present,future . but he had not.

Why should God always used the past tense , when He talking to us for something in "our present" or "future" or our "past" ?

Because He is talking to us, not Himself.
Look at it this way. There's two choices here:
1. Allah randomly chooses to tells us some future event using the past-tense and leaves it up to us to guess which is past and which is future.
2. Allah uses past tense when referring to past events and this can be confirmed when history shows us past events that match the given passage.

Which one sounds more likely?

 

[Tumah]

Why? prophets shouldn't work.
What's wrong if the prophet was working?

There is nothing wrong with him working. I am saying that before he was a prophet, he had a job. And that job put him in contact with Jews and Christians. Presumably, he spoke to them and they discussed their theologies among other things. Then when it was time to write his book, he included things he learned from other religions.

 

[Augustus]

The tafsirs claim this refers to these as being past events (although they don't agree which ones):

Ibn-Abbas gets it:

((Saying): If ye do good) if you confess Allah's Oneness, (ye do good for your own souls) the reward for that is Paradise, (and If ye do evil) and if you associate partners with Allah, (it is for them (in like manner)) the punishment for that is upon them. They remained in comfort, merriness, abundance of men and numbers, and triumph over the enemy for 220 years until Allah roused against them Titus. (So, when the time for the second (of the judgements) came) the second of the two punishment or the second of the two corruptions ((We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you) by killing you and taking you as captives, i.e. Titus the son of Espianos the Roman, (and to enter the Temple) Jerusalem (even as they entered it the first time) even as Nebuchadnezzar and his host entered it the first time, (and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting).
Tafsir ibn Abbas


al-Jalalayan gets it incorrect:


So when the time for the first of the two [prophecies], the first of the two occasions for corruption, came, We roused against you servants of Ours of great might, men who are strong in war and assault, who ransacked, who came and went, seeking you out [through], [your] habitations, in the [very] midst of your homes, in order to slay you and take [others among] you captive, and it was a promise fulfilled. Their first act of corruption was their slaying of [the prophet] Zachariah. So Goliath and his army were roused against them, and they slew them and took their children captive and destroyed the Holy House [of Jerusalem].

Then We gave you back the turn, the [rule of the] state and victory, [to prevail] over them, one hundred years later, by having Goliath slain, and We aided you with children and wealth, and made you greater in number, in clan.

And We said: ‘If you are virtuous, through [acts of] obedience, you are being virtuous to your own souls, since the reward thereof is for them [your souls]; and if you do evil, by way of [working] corruption, it is for them’, your evildoing. So when the time, the occasion, for the other [prophecy] comes, We will raise them forth, that they might ravage you, make you grieve through [their] slaying and taking captive [of you], a grief that will be manifest on your faces, and that they might enter the Temple, the Holy House [of Jerusalem], and destroy it, just as they entered it, and destroyed it, the first time, and that they might destroy, lay waste, all that they conquered, [all that] they gained ascendancy over, utterly, with an utter wasting. They indeed wrought corruption a second time when they slew [the prophet] John. Thus Nebuchadnezzar was roused against them, and so he slew thousands of them and took their children captive and destroyed the Holy House [of Jerusalem]. Tafisr Al-Jalalayan

They both talk about past events though

 

[FearGod]

Ta’if Campaign is in fact an extension of Hunain Ghazwah; that is because the majority of the defeated troops of Hawazin and Thaqif went into Ta’if with the general commander — Malik bin ‘Awf An-Nasri — and fortified themselves within it. So upon finishing with Hunain Invasion, he gathered the booty at Al-Ji‘ranah in the very month (i.e. Shawwal) and in the eighth year A.H.

A vanguard battalion of a thousand men led by Khalid bin Al-Waleed marched towards At-Ta’if. Whereas the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) proceeded passing through Nakhlah Al- Yamaniyah, Qarn Al-Manazil and through Laiyah. At Laiyah there was a castle that belonged to Malik bin ‘Awf, so the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) gave orders to have it destroyed. He resumed his march till h e got to Ta’if. There he dismounted, camped near its castle and laid siege to the castle inhabitants; but not for long.

How long the siege continued, is still a matter of disagreement. It however stands between 10-20 days.

A lot of arrow-shooting and rock-hurling occurred during the siege. For as soon as the Muslims laid siege round the castle, its people started shooting arrows against them. The arrows were so intense and fierce that they looked as if they had been locusts on the move. A number of Muslims were wounded and twelve were killed.

To be far from the arrow-range, the Muslims had to ascend to a higher location and camped on — i.e. to what is now called At-Ta’if Mosque. The Prophet (peace be upon him) set up a mangonel and shelled the castle. Eventually a gap was made in the castle wall, through which a number of Muslims managed to pass into the castle, sheltered by a wooden tank, with the purpose of setting fire into it. Anyway, the enemy poured down molten hot iron on them. Affected by this theMuslims stepped out of the tank and were again exposed to arrow shooting and consequently some of them were killed.

To force the enemy to surrender, the Prophet (peace be upon him) tended to a war policy of burning and cutting the enemy’s crops. His order was to cut their vineyards and burn them. Seeing that the Muslims started rapidly cutting and burning their vines, they implored the Prophet (peace be upon him) to stop and have mercy on them for the sake of Allâh and out of kinship motives. So the Prophet agreed. When the caller of the Messenger of Allâh (peace be upon him) called out unto people saying “He whosoever descends and steps out of the castle is free.” The sealed nectar.

I'm not sure if the enemies were Jews or not. If this incident is true, using Roman siege engines likely demonstrates that many of the Arabs involved in the conquests were previously confederated troops who fought with the Romans. Arabs had comprised a significant percentage of the Roman allied forces for many years.

Fighting and walls were closely linked in those days though, and many cities and towns were surrounded by them. This is especially true in the Syria/Palestine/Egypt area as it was the boundary between the Persian and Roman empires so many towns had been built with defence in mind.

If the end of times was preceded by large scale war, to someone in the 7th C it would likely involve fighting around walls too.

What are the verses from the Quran that talk of the wall?

The verse of the quran confirms that they won't dare to fight face to face but behind the walls and fortified cities.
And it's true that they built the walls and lived in a fortified cities.

It doesn't mention Ta'if or Madina or Mecca ....etc, but several cities or villages.

 

[Thanda]

Shalom Godobeyer

You quoted a Christian belief and then asked why Jews run after that belief. For accuracy, you should ask what Judaism's beliefs are on this matter. We don't have a belief that the world is going to end. Rather, we believe the Earth will be perfected. There will be World peace and Heaven on Earth. That's the promises that we run after.

The "world" is spiritual Babylon. When the world ends it means wickedness will end - that is, the wicked will be removed. So do you believe the world (not the Earth) as we know it will end?

 

[FearGod]

There is nothing wrong with him working. I am saying that before he was a prophet, he had a job. And that job put him in contact with Jews and Christians. Presumably, he spoke to them and they discussed their theologies among other things. Then when it was time to write his book, he included things he learned from other religions.

I met many people working in different jobs, traders, drivers, doctors ..etc and they meet many people
and they know nothing about any religion.

Working in a job and meeting people doesn't make a person a prophet, sorry, but that was stupid.

 

[Tumah]

I met many people working in different jobs, traders, drivers, doctors ..etc and they meet many people
and they know nothing about any religion.

Working in a job and meeting people doesn't make a person a prophet, sorry, but that was stupid.

The obvious difference being that a camel driver is going to spend days, weeks if not more together with his customers, which is not the same for most modern occupations.
But apparently you think while Muhammad was driving around Arabia in his camel transporting Jews, Christians and their goods, they had no communication and its just coincidental that these elements made their way into the Qur'an?
Makes sense.

 

[Augustus]

There is nothing wrong with him working. I am saying that before he was a prophet, he had a job. And that job put him in contact with Jews and Christians. Presumably, he spoke to them and they discussed their theologies among other things. Then when it was time to write his book, he included things he learned from other religions.

The more pertinent point is that the Quran clearly assumes its audience is familiar with numerous concepts from the Abrahamic tradition. Much of it is a commentary on existing scripture and religious teaching.

This would make no sense to pagans in a pagan environment.

 

[Tumah]

The more pertinent point is that the Quran clearly assumes its audience is familiar with numerous concepts from the Abrahamic tradition. Much of it is a commentary on existing scripture and religious teaching.

This would make no sense to pagans in a pagan environment.

I never thought of it that way (possibly because I'm not familiar with the Qur'an), but that actually makes sense from the passages that have been linked here from time to time.

The point that i was trying to make is that even elements outside of Scriptures that exist solely within the Jewish tradition still found their way into the Qur'an which means that not only did Muhammad get his hands on a Bible he must have also spoken with people who could have told him about these things.

 

[Augustus]

I never thought of it that way (possibly because I'm not familiar with the Qur'an), but that actually makes sense from the passages that have been linked here from time to time.

The point that i was trying to make is that even elements outside of Scriptures that exist solely within the Jewish tradition still found their way into the Qur'an which means that not only did Muhammad get his hands on a Bible he must have also spoken with people who could have told him about these things.

Might be interested in these:

Moses and the Holy Valley Ṭuwan: On the Biblical and Midrashic background of a Qurʾānic scene Uri rubin
http://urirubin.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Tuwan.86132451.pdf

The Qur’ān and its Hypertextuality in Light of Redaction Criticism - Guillaume Dye
https://www.academia.edu/12358270/The_Quran_and_its_Hypertextuality_in_Light_of_Redaction_Criticism