The birth of the state of Israel and God's promise in the end times

[rosends]

i believe the Jews are lost and following the wrong path but
i'm not judging who's right and who's wrong.

you don't see an internal contradiction here?

 

[FearGod]

you don't see an internal contradiction here?

I believe that you're a bad person, does that make you a bad person.
Where's the contradiction?

My belief has nothing to do with facts.

 

[rosends]

I believe that you're a bad person, does that make you a bad person.
Where's the contradiction?

My belief has nothing to do with facts.

Your claim was that you don't judge. And yet in that same statement, you judged. This isn't about "facts" but about your reaction to someone else's beliefs. You said that Jews are following the wrong path, but you don't judge right and wrong. If you don't judge right and wrong, how can you judge that Jews follow the wrong path?

 

[FearGod]

Your claim was that you don't judge. And yet in that same statement, you judged. This isn't about "facts" but about your reaction to someone else's beliefs. You said that Jews are following the wrong path, but you don't judge right and wrong. If you don't judge right and wrong, how can you judge that Jews follow the wrong path?

I believe which is different than judging.

 

[rosends]

I believe which is different than judging.

that sounds like a distinction without a difference.

 

[FearGod]

that sounds like a distinction without a difference.

Judging need an evidence whereas you can believe anything you want to.

 

[rosends]

Judging need an evidence whereas you can believe anything you want to.

so you won't judge that Jews are on the wrong path. You only believe Jews are on the wrong path, but lack any and all evidence to back up your absolutely capricious belief?

 

[FearGod]

so you won't judge that Jews are on the wrong path. You only believe Jews are on the wrong path, but lack any and all evidence to back up your absolutely capricious belief?

Do you have an evidence that Muhammed isn't a messenger of God?
Do you have an evidence that Jesus isn't a messenger of God?

 

[rosends]

Do you have an evidence that Muhammed isn't a messenger of God?
Do you have an evidence that Jesus isn't a messenger of God?

actually, yes. But neither is material to your answering my question so let's stay focused, shall we?

 

[FearGod]

actually, yes. But neither is material to your answering my question so let's stay focused, shall we?

Good that you'll understand my point now,
in this case you're judging and not me, good luck wise man.

 

[rosends]

Good that you'll understand my point now,
in this case you're judging and not me, good luck wise man.

That was wonderful. You shifted the focus onto me and an unrelated point, avoiding answering a direct question. If you couldn't answer, you could have said so a while ago. I never said I wasn't judging. I said you were judging and you have yet to prove me wrong.

 

[Godobeyer]

Because He is talking to us, not Himself.
Look at it this way. There's two choices here:
1. Allah randomly chooses to tells us some future event using the past-tense and leaves it up to us to guess which is past and which is future.
2. Allah uses past tense when referring to past events and this can be confirmed when history shows us past events that match the given passage.

Which one sounds more likely?

Since He talking to us He could take the all tenses (Present,past,future) to understand more ,when talking about WHAT He will do He could use past tense , because He had no time apply on Him .

get it ?

 

[Augustus]

Since He talking to us He could take the all tenses (Present,past,future) to understand more ,when He will do (talk about what He will do) He could use past tense , because He had no time apply on Him .

Why did exegetes like ibn Abbas and al-Jalalayan also think it referred to past events when they wrote their tafsirs?

Remember, as well as clearly reflecting well documented historical events, it serves a theological purpose to explain why God's 'chosen people' kept being defeated by polytheistic pagans.

It makes historical sense, grammatical sense and theological sense to be past events; this view is supported in significant works of tafsir.

Don't you think pretending it relates to modern day Jews is a touch 'convenient'?

 

[Godobeyer]

Why did exegetes like ibn Abbas and al-Jalalayan also think it referred to past events when they wrote their tafsirs?

Tafsir is suppose follow the tense of Quran . so Jalalayan and others

Remember, as well as clearly reflecting well documented historical events, it serves a theological purpose to explain why God's 'chosen people' kept being defeated by polytheistic pagans.

It makes historical sense, grammatical sense and theological sense to be past events; this view is supported in significant works of tafsir.


Don't you think pretending it relates to modern day Jews is a touch 'convenient'?

God called Jews chosen people , because they accepted His message.

after they broke His Covenant
, and edited His books,so they did not become the chosen people anymore .

 

[Augustus]

God called Jews chosen people , because they accepted His message.

after they broke His Covenant
, and edited His books,so they did not become the chosen people anymore .

That's what the verse is saying and referencing historical events which 'prove' it. Why do you think it is talking about the future?

Tafsir is suppose follow the tense of Quran . so Jalalayan and others

So ibn Abbas got confused when he discussed the Roman destruction of the Temple?

((Saying): If ye do good) if you confess Allah's Oneness, (ye do good for your own souls) the reward for that is Paradise, (and If ye do evil) and if you associate partners with Allah, (it is for them (in like manner)) the punishment for that is upon them. They remained in comfort, merriness, abundance of men and numbers, and triumph over the enemy for 220 years until Allah roused against them Titus. (So, when the time for the second (of the judgements) came) the second of the two punishment or the second of the two corruptions ((We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you) by killing you and taking you as captives, i.e. Titus the son of Espianos the Roman, (and to enter the Temple) Jerusalem (even as they entered it the first time) even as Nebuchadnezzar and his host entered it the first time, (and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting).
Tafsir ibn Abbas

 

[Godobeyer]

That's what the verse is saying and referencing historical events which 'prove' it. Why do you think it is talking about the future?

These God was talking about past , so it's was about past .
So God blamed them how he choose them (and saved them) , then they disobeyed Him and edited his message .

So ibn Abbas got confused when he discussed the Roman destruction of the Temple?

((Saying): If ye do good) if you confess Allah's Oneness, (ye do good for your own souls) the reward for that is Paradise, (and If ye do evil) and if you associate partners with Allah, (it is for them (in like manner)) the punishment for that is upon them. They remained in comfort, merriness, abundance of men and numbers, and triumph over the enemy for 220 years until Allah roused against them Titus. (So, when the time for the second (of the judgements) came) the second of the two punishment or the second of the two corruptions ((We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you) by killing you and taking you as captives, i.e. Titus the son of Espianos the Roman, (and to enter the Temple) Jerusalem (even as they entered it the first time) even as Nebuchadnezzar and his host entered it the first time, (and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting).
Tafsir ibn Abbas

sorry , I had no idea about this

I need to understand your point ,then search about it in Arabic reference , so I can reply , just give me some time

 

[Tumah]

Since He talking to us He could take the all tenses (Present,past,future) to understand more ,when talking about WHAT He will do He could use past tense , because He had no time apply on Him .

get it ?

No, I don't.
Maybe you could tweak that sentence with Debate Slayer.

 

[Tumah]

And what i believe which you don't believe doesn't mean that i'm wrong,
for example i believe the Jews are lost and following the wrong path but
i'm not judging who's right and who's wrong.

But none of that is going to answer the glaring question of how Jewish Rabbinical concepts made their way into the Qur'an, right?

 

[FearGod]

But none of that is going to answer the glaring question of how Jewish Rabbinical concepts made their way into the Qur'an, right?

Religion isn't an invention, it doesn't belong to one specific group.
This's the problem, Jews think that religion was made just for them,
gentiles were made just to serve the Jews.

 

[Tumah]

Religion isn't an invention, it doesn't belong to one specific group.
This's the problem, Jews think that religion was made just for them,
gentiles were made just to serve the Jews.

What does religion have to do with what we are talking about?