The blind faith of the evolutionists

[FearGod]

That is what I am trying to ask you. Are they all part of creation? Were they all created by the "God" you believe in? Why do you think this reference to the seven heavens is limited to this solar system?

You already discussed my thread about the seven heavens and you didn't agree with me,so any more discussions here will be useless.

 

[fantome profane]

You already discussed my thread about the seven heavens and you didn't agree with me,so any more discussions here will be useless.

Are you accusing me of being dogmatic?

 

[Parsimony]

I have a thread about my view regarding the seven heavens and those have been discussed

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/158116-seven-heavens.html

Also 2 verses in the quran proved my view

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/158244-god-does-exist.html

Ah, so I see that your definition is that a "land" is a place with both an orbit and an atmosphere? I see you failed to classify Venus as a land in your little diagram. Why? It has both an orbit and an atmosphere, does it not? Mercury also has a thin atmosphere, so it should count too. Would that not make for 9 Heavens? If you count Titan (which also has an orbit and an atmosphere even thicker than that of Earth), that's 10.

 

[FearGod]

Ah, so I see that your definition is that a "land" is a place with both an orbit and an atmosphere? I see you failed to classify Venus as a land in your little diagram. Why? It has both an orbit and an atmosphere, does it not? Mercury also has a thin atmosphere, so it should count too. Would that not make for 9 Heavens? If you count Titan (which also has an orbit and an atmosphere even thicker than that of Earth), that's 10.

One verse describes the seven layers to be above earth and hence Venus and Mercury aren't included,for Titan it belongs to the same layer of Saturn,so it isn't counted.

And We have created above you seven layered heavens, and never have We been of [Our] creation unaware.(23:17)

 

[Parsimony]

One verse describes the seven layers to be above earth and hence Venus and Mercury aren't included,

Go outside one night and look for Venus. When you see it, would you say that it is above you or below you?

for Titan it belongs to the same layer of Saturn,so it isn't counted.

Why does Saturn get to have its own layer but Titan does not? Titan has an orbit and an atmosphere. Does this mean that your own definition doesn't work here?

 

[Ouroboros]

Go outside one night and look for Venus. When you see it, would you say that it is above you or below you?


Why does Saturn get to have its own layer but Titan does not? Titan has an orbit and an atmosphere. Does this mean that your own definition doesn't work here?

Pluto has a thin atmosphere as well.

To confirm that the dwarf planet did indeed have an atmosphere, astronomers studied it as it passed in front of bright stars over the course of its orbit. They noticed that the stars dimmed before Pluto itself moved across it, as the atmosphere of Pluto slowly blocked their light. The experiment was repeated with several stars, allowing astronomers to understand more about the air on Pluto.

Does Pluto Have an Atmosphere? | Space.com

 

[FearGod]

Go outside one night and look for Venus. When you see it, would you say that it is above you or below you?

But the fact is that Venus is nearer to the sun

Why does Saturn get to have its own layer but Titan does not? Titan has an orbit and an atmosphere. Does this mean that your own definition doesn't work here?

Titan is a moon,its orbit is around Saturn and not the sun.

 

[FearGod]

Pluto has a thin atmosphere as well.


Does Pluto Have an Atmosphere? | Space.com

Yes right, Pluto is included.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That, it seems to me, is because of your expectations. Maybe you are a supporter of the concept of "kind" that we see here in this area sometimes..

Is it proven that species evolved from one kind to another? or the evidence just has proven that each specie evolved in it own kind? So, for example did some of the plant species evolved to animals? or some insects to birds? some animals into human?

 

[idav]

Is it proven that species evolved from one kind to another? or the evidence just has proven that each specie evolved in it own kind? So, for example did some of the plant species evolved to animals? or some insects to birds? some animals into human?

Kinda yeah.

In its*4.6 billion years*circling the sun, the Earth has harbored an increasing diversity of life forms:
for the last 3.6*billion*years,*simple cells*(prokaryotes);
for the last 3.4 billion years,*cyanobacteria*performing*photosynthesis;
for the last 2 billion years,*complex cells*(eukaryotes);
for the last 1 billion years,*multicellular life;
for the last 600 million years, simple*animals;
for the last 550 million years,*bilaterians, animals with a front and a back;
for the last 500 million years,*fish*and*proto-amphibians;
for the last 475 million years,*land plants;
for the last 400 million years,*insects*and*seeds;
for the last 360 million years,*amphibians;
for the last 300 million years,*reptiles;
for the last 200 million years,*mammals;
for the last 150 million years,*birds
for the last 130 million years,*flowers;
for the last 60 million years, the*primates,
for the last 20 million years, the family*Hominidae*(great apes);
for the last 2.5 million years, the genus*Homo*(human predecessors);
for the last 200,000 years,*anatomically modern humans.

Timeline of evolutionary history of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Kinda yeah.

Thank you. What I saw in that quote from Wikipedia, is kinda No.

 

[idav]

Thank you. What I saw in that quote from Wikipedia, is kinda No.

Diversity increased over time so yeah. Simple to complex. Nothing like a house fly turning into a bird, it isnt magic.

 

[Parsimony]

But the fact is that Venus is nearer to the sun

What does that have anything to do with the meaning of the word "above"? We don't live on the Sun, we live on Earth. Everything in the sky looks like it is above us.

You also say that this system of seven heavens only applies to the Solar System and not the rest of the Universe because it is only about things "related to Earth". If that is so, then what effect does something so small and distant as Pluto have on us? You can't even see it with the naked eye. The stars in the night sky, particularly important ones like Polaris, have had a much bigger impact on us historically because we have actually been able to see them unaided for thousands of years.

How do you decide what the cut-off point is between "related to Earth" and "not related to Earth"? Given that our Solar System orbits the center of the galaxy 26,000 light-years away, can you say that somehow has no effect on us and is of no relevance or relation to the Earth at all?

Titan is a moon,its orbit is around Saturn and not the sun.

Where does the Qu'ran say that the heavens are specifically represented by orbits around the Sun? Is the word "orbit" even used?

On another note, what effect would the discovery of a new planet with an atmosphere have on this system of heavens you have devised?

 

[FearGod]

What does that have anything to do with the meaning of the word "above"? We don't live on the Sun, we live on Earth. Everything in the sky looks like it is above us.

Ostensibly but in reality no.

You also say that this system of seven heavens only applies to the Solar System and not the rest of the Universe because it is only about things "related to Earth". If that is so, then what effect does something so small and distant as Pluto have on us? You can't even see it with the naked eye. The stars in the night sky, particularly important ones like Polaris, have had a much bigger impact on us historically because we have actually been able to see them unaided for thousands of years.

They are related as orbiting the sun

How do you decide what the cut-off point is between "related to Earth" and "not related to Earth"? Given that our Solar System orbits the center of the galaxy 26,000 light-years away, can you say that somehow has no effect on us and is of no relevance or relation to the Earth at all?

The quran pointed to the solar system and the orbits above earth

Where does the Qu'ran say that the heavens are specifically represented by orbits around the Sun? Is the word "orbit" even used?

We have created seven orbits above you; We have not been heedless about creation. (23:17)

On another note, what effect would the discovery of a new planet with an atmosphere have on this system of heavens you have devised?

Depending on the planet,where it is situated and whether if it has its own orbit around the sun and then we have eight orbits instead of seven,then yes in that case i may admit that i was wrong.

 

[gnostic]

Is it proven that species evolved from one kind to another? or the evidence just has proven that each specie evolved in it own kind? So, for example did some of the plant species evolved to animals? or some insects to birds? some animals into human?

Speciation is only one part or process of evolution.

There is more to evolution than just formation of new species, through natural selection or mutation.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Thank you. What I saw in that quote from Wikipedia, is kinda No.

Then you either
1) don't understand what you are reading or
2) Are being dishonest with yourself and us.

Number 1 is understandable. Very few layman have a good understanding of evolution.

Number 2 is usually common with people who have the axiom that god is correct and evolution is wrong. Its impossible for people with an axiom like that to actually think critically and accept the logical answer.

Which are you?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then you either
1) don't understand what you are reading or
2) Are being dishonest with yourself and us.

Number 1 is understandable. Very few layman have a good understanding of evolution.

Number 2 is usually common with people who have the axiom that god is correct and evolution is wrong. Its impossible for people with an axiom like that to actually think critically and accept the logical answer.

Which are you?

Or I'm right. Hmm?

 

[Ouroboros]

Is it proven that species evolved from one kind to another?

Yes. Pretty much. It's called "speciation" if you want to look for it.

Evolution 101: Speciation

or the evidence just has proven that each specie evolved in it own kind?

"Kind" is a term that was popular when essentialism was prominent, but nothing in DNA or otherwise can truly separate individuals into "kinds". You have populations with variations, and "kind" isn't an accurate biological term anymore.

So, for example did some of the plant species evolved to animals?

Have you heard about green sea slug? It's considered both plant and animal, last I heard.

or some insects to birds?

Well, yes and no. Since birds evolved through a different path: The origin of birds

But yes, since much much earlier, maybe it was an insect that dinosaurs came from. Not sure. I would have to look it up.

some animals into human?

Humans evolved from a shared ancestor to the apes. We are of the primate family.

 

[Parsimony]

Ostensibly but in reality no.

Actually, you're right. Above is a relative term. What looks to be above me on Earth can be below a person in Australia or an astronaut in space. It all depends on one's orientation. So one could just as easily argue for a different number of orbits above the Earth if one happens to be in the right orientation.

They are related as orbiting the sun

Based on the verse you posted, the Sun does not seem to factor into it. Only "orbits" do.

The quran pointed to the solar system and the orbits above earth

Is the word "Solar System" used in the Qu'ran? Also, "above" does not equal "beyond". Above is relative to one's orientation, as I pointed out before. In which case, Venus is above Earth from the orientation of a human standing on Earth looking up at it.

We have created seven orbits above you; We have not been heedless about creation. (23:17)

I don't see the Sun or atmospheres mentioned here. All I see is orbits. In such a case, the orbits from asteroids and moons should count as well.

Depending on the planet,where it is situated and whether if it has its own orbit around the sun and then we have eight orbits instead of seven,then yes in that case i may admit that i was wrong.

I am impressed that you are willing to admit this. Thank you.

 

[FearGod]

Actually, you're right. Above is a relative term. What looks to be above me on Earth can be below a person in Australia or an astronaut in space. It all depends on one's orientation. So one could just as easily argue for a different number of orbits above the Earth if one happens to be in the right orientation.

It is about the planet and its distance from the sun and not from which position we are looking to,IOW Mercury will be always nearer to the sun than earth and Mars will be always farther from the sun than earth.

Based on the verse you posted, the Sun does not seem to factor into it. Only "orbits" do.

You are right,i missed to quote for you the next verse.

Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers.(71:15)
And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?(71:16)

Is the word "Solar System" used in the Qu'ran? Also, "above" does not equal "beyond". Above is relative to one's orientation, as I pointed out before. In which case, Venus is above Earth from the orientation of a human standing on Earth looking up at it.

See above.

I don't see the Sun or atmospheres mentioned here. All I see is orbits. In such a case, the orbits from asteroids and moons should count as well.

The sun is mentioned,actually i have expected the results of the size of the paradise in relation to the width of the 7 heavens before starting my calculations and i worked with the 2 verses to confirm the veracity of the verses about the 7 heavens.(see my thread God does exist)

I am impressed that you are willing to admit this. Thank you.

Thanx .