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The blind faith of the evolutionists

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I know you hate being told this, but you really need to do some reading on how evolution works.

Members of one species (e.g. H. erectus) do not all evolve in lock-step into a different species. A widespread species like H. erectus exists as many reproductively isolated populations, some of which accumulate genetic traits not shared by other populations. If one of these isolated populations becomes so genetically different from the rest that it can no longer interbreed with them, it may go on to become a distinct species; there is nothing to stop the rest continuing as they are, as clearly happened with lots of erectus populations.

Let me put my question in this way.

What gradual changes that caused Homo erectus to evolve to Homo sapiens during the period of 2 millions of years ?

We know that evolution doesn't happen in one day night,so please answer in scientific way and you can source a link that clarify the point explaining the gradual changes on species that made evolution possible in our example for Homo erectus.
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Let me put my question in this way.

What gradual changes that caused Homo erectus to evolve to Homo sapiens during the period of 2 millions of years ?
It is misleading to think of "Homo erectus evolving into Homo sapiens", as though a whole species was evolving simultaneously in a single direction. A million years ago there were numerous hominid populations around the world that modern anthropologists group together under the umbrella term Homo erectus. These hominids were already relatively big-brained, and used tools and possibly fire. In one or (probably) more of these populations larger brains and other sapiens-like features were selected for, and it is from these that H. sapiens emerged. If you ask why the rest didn't evolve in the same direction, it is likely that either the necessary genetic changes (mutations, recombinations etc) didn't occur in those populations, or if they did that those changes were not sufficiently advantageous in their particular way of life: large, sapiens-type brains are energetically very expensive to run and maintain, and confer a net advantage only in very specific circumstances.
 
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secret2

Member
How it was changing and it was still homo erectus for 2 millions of years?
Would you please illustrate ?

This has already been explained so many times before. "Species" is a continuum concept. There has really been no indisputable "first homo sapiens". The evolution from one species to another is a gradual process, with only minute differences between any two consecutive generations. The identification of species is primarily for convenience of discourse. It is unfortunate that this leads to the mistaken belief that speciation signifies a magical moment after which all members suddenly became a new species.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Thanks for the info. I am not sure if it can be established beyond reasonable doubt that we are evolved from apes. It can be said that, all species has been always evolving, but there is no proof beyond reasonable doubt that if an animal and tree for example are evolved from same species. Is that fair?
Sorry. But it's quite sure we evolved from the apes.

Endo-retro virus and transposons that we share with apes prove it. They are genetic code that can only be shared if we share family. It's like having a family Bible with all the relatives, and in there you find the names of the apes. We are related without a shred of doubt.

Let me give you an analogy as to what I mean. Consider when we are in the womb. In the first days we looked like a warm, and nothing like human, and gradually we evolve in the womb until we become complete as we are now. However, regardless if we looked like a warm, we were still human, not a warm. Now, similar evolution on human may have been going on through millions or billions of years. Maybe we looked like a warm, or fish, but still we were a distinct specie.
My analogy of developing as a human and the evolution was just an analogy. Species didn't develop like a fetus to grown human. The development of a fetus to grown human doesn't prove evolution. It was to show an analogy that all things that we see right now are always in flux and that we got here (even you as a person) through changes, not fixed points.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Human understood to be evolved from Apes in Africa.
When did the first human entered Europe and which kind of species,was it sapiens or other kinds than sapiens?

Into Europe specifically?

I think the early humans migrated towards Asia.

Here's the genographic route made by National Geographics:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/

They used genetic mapping and tracing to create it. Because we all share small errors (markers, analogous mutations, etc), you can establish heritage and familiarity to larger existing groups and how they interrelate.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
right,fossils show that Homo erectus lived earth before 2 millions years ago and survived till before around 100000 years.

Evolution is known to be a gradual process,so how you explain that Homo erectus lived about 2 millions of years still as Homo erectus and then Homo sapiens just evolved before 200000 years while homo erectus was still existing on earth.

Just because there's a new species that evolved from some individuals in a population doesn't mean that all in that population all evolve to the same new species.

This is something very basic in understanding evolution.

It's very obvious.

Compare it to how cars are developed. Just because Ford develops, manufactures, and sells a new model of a car doesn't mean they stopped the earlier models.

A large portion of H. erectus continued to live on and have children etc.

When there's a speciation event, that's a fork in the road. Not a new direction for everyone. A speciation means that there's a split. Some individuals got separated from the large group, and the new small fringe group evolved in a different direction than the first one.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
How it is gradual and homo erectus didn't change for the whole period of 2 millions of years in different parts of the world.
Because it's not directed.

It's by chance.

The chance is that you can have millions of years of nothing, and then you have something new.

If we had DNA from H. erectus, what we would find is that there would be a huge amount of genetic diversity. There wouldn't be much change to their homogenic genes, but there would be quite a large amount of lesser genes mutated, just like we have today in the world. We all carry a bunch of unique genes that can't be seen. Some genetic change is visible. Most of it is not. And it's not some guarantee that a species must mutate visible (phenotype) changes. Sharks is an example. Their phenotype hasn't changed much for a very long time, but the diversity in the genetic material is still extremely high.

IOW,if changes wasn't noticed for that long period of time,then how it is gradual.
The changes that are gradual. But the visible or noticeable changes are not. You can have many changes in the DNA without anything showing.

For instance, there are several synonymous codons producing the same peptides, as can seen here:
http://www.biologycorner.com/resources/codon2.gif
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Let me put my question in this way.

What gradual changes that caused Homo erectus to evolve to Homo sapiens during the period of 2 millions of years ?

We know that evolution doesn't happen in one day night,so please answer in scientific way and you can source a link that clarify the point explaining the gradual changes on species that made evolution possible in our example for Homo erectus.

Feargod, I don't know how many times I have posted this excellent link for you to read this website which helps explain your questions and confusion on the topic.



"New Exhibition Hall Devoted to Human Origins Opens at National Museum of Natural History

March 17, 2010
A new exhibition hall dedicated to the discovery and understanding of human origins opens March 17 at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History. Based on decades of cutting-edge research by Smithsonian scientists, the David H. Koch (pronounced “coke”) Hall of Human Origins will open to the public in a special preview from noon to 3 p.m. Wednesday, March 17, which also marks the 100-year anniversary of the museum’s official opening on the National Mall.


Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History Human origins program.

Human Evolution by The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program



Human Evolution Timeline Interactive

Explore the evidence for human evolution in this interactive timeline - climate change, species, and milestones in becoming human.

Zoom in using the magnifier on the bottom for a closer look!

Human Evolution Timeline Interactive | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The separation of the vertebrate lineage from almost all invertebrates had happened a long time earlier, with the protostome-deuterostome divergence. So no, no insect ever evolved into any vertebrate.

The dinosaurs evolved after the Permian mass extinction, just like Humans evolved after the Cretaceous-Tertiary mass extinction.


The Cretaceous-Tertiary mass extinction - also known as the K/T extinction - is famed for the death of the dinosaurs. However, many other organisms perished at the end of the Cretaceous including the ammonites, many flowering plants and the last of the pterosaurs.




Big Five mass extinction events
Although the Cretaceous-Tertiary (or K-T) extinction event is the most well-known because it wiped out the dinosaurs, a series of other mass extinction events has occurred throughout the history of the Earth, some even more devastating than K-T. Mass extinctions are periods in Earth's history when abnormally large numbers of species die out simultaneously or within a limited time frame. The most severe occurred at the end of the Permian period when 96% of all species perished. This along with K-T are two of the Big Five mass extinctions, each of which wiped out at least half of all species. Many smaller scale mass extinctions have occurred, indeed the disappearance of many animals and plants at the hands of man in prehistoric, historic and modern times will eventually show up in the fossil record as mass extinctions. Discover more about Earth's major extinction events below.


"Permian mass extinction
The Permian mass extinction has been nicknamed The Great Dying, since a staggering 96% of species died out. All life on Earth today is descended from the 4% of species that survived."

BBC Nature - Big Five mass extinction events
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Birds evolved from the dinosaurs. Scientists are in the process of back engineering chicken eggs to dinosaurs.

The discovery of Human Chromosome 2 Genome.

"The phases through which chromosomes replicate, divide, shuffle, and recombine are imperfect, as DNA is subject to random mutations. Mutations do not always produce harmful outcomes. In fact, many mutations are thought to be neutral, and some even give rise to beneficial traits. To corroborate Darwin's theory, scientists would need to find a valid explanation for why a chromosome pair is missing in humans that is present in apes."

[youtube]8FGYzZOZxMw[/youtube]
Ken Miller Human Chromosome 2 Genome - YouTube
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Sorry. But it's quite sure we evolved from the apes.

Endo-retro virus and transposons that we share with apes prove it. They are genetic code that can only be shared if we share family. It's like having a family Bible with all the relatives, and in there you find the names of the apes. We are related without a shred of doubt.

My analogy of developing as a human and the evolution was just an analogy. Species didn't develop like a fetus to grown human. The development of a fetus to grown human doesn't prove evolution. It was to show an analogy that all things that we see right now are always in flux and that we got here (even you as a person) through changes, not fixed points.
Right now according to certain scientific evidences, some conclusions are made, but as science improves, and new evidences are found the conclusions might be different and better, to the point that some of the conclusions that are considered true in our time, might be considered wrong at that point, and be replace with a correct one in future.


I didn't say that the analogy of human in the womb proves evolution. I said when we evolve in the womb from something like a warm to a complete human, at all the time we are human, even though we do not like human in the womb. The point is that human on the earth has gone through evolution from one shape to another shape gradually, until what it looks like today, but at all the time it could have been a distinct specie. There is nothing in science to prove this to be wrong. Is there? I understand that this is not what is concluded right now, but not everything that is concluded is the absolute truth. The history has shown that how many times scientists taught a particular theory is the absolute truth, while some time later, it was yet replaced by a better and more correct/complete theory.

Also, the analogy I used was from Baha'i scriptures written over 100 years ago. i can quote if you want.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Factually you are not. On what basis do you bring your scientific claim that evolution is false? What are the evidences that you base this upon?

What is your evidence that I said evolution is false? I have already said all species evolved and perhaps human used to look like even a warm or a fish at some point, but that doesn't prove it wasn't human. Since when our look defines who we are. Let me ask you this. When you were in the womb of your mother, and you were only one day old, did you look like human? No!. But can we say you were not human? No, we cannot.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Right now according to certain scientific evidences, some conclusions are made, but as science improves, and new evidences are found the conclusions might be different and better, to the point that some of the conclusions that are considered true in our time, might be considered wrong at that point, and be replace with a correct one in future.


I didn't say that the analogy of human in the womb proves evolution. I said when we evolve in the womb from something like a warm to a complete human, at all the time we are human, even though we do not like human in the womb. The point is that human on the earth has gone through evolution from one shape to another shape gradually, until what it looks like today, but at all the time it could have been a distinct specie. There is nothing in science to prove this to be wrong. Is there? I understand that this is not what is concluded right now, but not everything that is concluded is the absolute truth. The history has shown that how many times scientists taught a particular theory is the absolute truth, while some time later, it was yet replaced by a better and more correct/complete theory.

Also, the analogy I used was from Baha'i scriptures written over 100 years ago. i can quote if you want.

Sorry, but you a very much mistaken.

Theories are never excepted as absolute truth, a theory is an explanation - the best explanation possible at the time given the available data. Theories are never claimed to be absolute truth - so scientists have never taught a particular theory as absolute truth. Theories are explanations, not conclusions.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
What is your evidence that I said evolution is false? I have already said all species evolved and perhaps human used to look like even a warm or a fish at some point, but that doesn't prove it wasn't human. Since when our look defines who we are. Let me ask you this. When you were in the womb of your mother, and you were only one day old, did you look like human? No!. But can we say you were not human? No, we cannot.

How do you define "human"?
*edit*

And it doesn't matter if you believe in microevolution or however you wish to define things but we have common ancestry and it is rock solid evidence wise. And yet you don't agree with it? I ask on what grounds do you still cling to calling things "kinds".
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Sorry, but you a very much mistaken.

Theories are never excepted as absolute truth, a theory is an explanation - the best explanation possible at the time given the available data. Theories are never claimed to be absolute truth - so scientists have never taught a particular theory as absolute truth. Theories are explanations, not conclusions.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Right now according to certain scientific evidences, some conclusions are made, but as science improves, and new evidences are found the conclusions might be different and better, to the point that some of the conclusions that are considered true in our time, might be considered wrong at that point, and be replace with a correct one in future.


I didn't say that the analogy of human in the womb proves evolution. I said when we evolve in the womb from something like a warm to a complete human, at all the time we are human, even though we do not like human in the womb. The point is that human on the earth has gone through evolution from one shape to another shape gradually, until what it looks like today, but at all the time it could have been a distinct specie. There is nothing in science to prove this to be wrong. Is there? I understand that this is not what is concluded right now, but not everything that is concluded is the absolute truth. The history has shown that how many times scientists taught a particular theory is the absolute truth, while some time later, it was yet replaced by a better and more correct/complete theory.

Also, the analogy I used was from Baha'i scriptures written over 100 years ago. i can quote if you want.



Evolution is both a scientific FACT and a scientific THEORY. The scientific THEORY of evolution is based on billions of facts.

From the National Academies of science.

Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact?

It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.

Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). Like these other foundational scientific theories, the theory of evolution is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by new evidence. However, like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is subject to continuing refinement as new areas of science emerge or as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not possible previously.

One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. The evolutionary biologists who discovered Tiktaalik predicted that they would find fossils intermediate between fish and limbed terrestrial animals in sediments that were about 375 million years old. Their discovery confirmed the prediction made on the basis of evolutionary theory. In turn, confirmation of a prediction increases confidence in that theory.

In science, a "fact" typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term "fact" to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.

Evolution Resources from the National Academies


" I said when we evolve in the womb from something like a warm to a complete human, at all the time we are human, even though we do not like human in the womb."

Yes, because "at all the time we are human" genetic DNA code. That is why something other then human isn't born.

If not it would be a different DNA sequence and you would get different stages and hence looks.



"a joint statement of IAP by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 3.8 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin"

It the history and timeline of the Planet itself and life and evolution, modern humans have not been here long at all.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
How do you define "human"?
*edit*

How does science define human? Did science always define human as it defines today? Will the science in future change its definition? Can science define human correctly?
What distinguishes human from animals is the power of intellect. What is the power of intellect related to? eyes? ears? memory? No! Many of animals have better eyes, ears or memory than us, yet, they don't possess intellect, and power of discovery of sciences.

And it doesn't matter if you believe in microevolution or however you wish to define things but we have common ancestry and it is rock solid evidence wise. And yet you don't agree with it? I ask on what grounds do you still cling to calling things "kinds".

The evidence is in history. How many times there has been theories that some scientists presented their evidence and insisted their theoretical conclusions are absolutely true? Yet, later, other scientists appeared and proved the older theories was not correct, or partially false, then it was replaced by yet better theory. Now there are evidences that suggests the current understanding of evolution. In the future as science improves, some of the conclusions that are considered true, might be proven false and be replace by a more correct and accurate ones. The evidences prove that all species has been evolving through millions of years from one shape to another. I think this is generally true, but the details of this evolution has a lot more to discover. Yet you insist the current science of evolution is absolutely true. That is the problem I see.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
How does science define human? Did science always define human as it defines today? Will the science in future change its definition? Can science define human correctly?
What distinguishes human from animals is the power of intellect. What is the power of intellect related to? eyes? ears? memory? No! Many of animals have better eyes, ears or memory than us, yet, they don't possess intellect, and power of discovery of sciences.
Humans are defined by our genetics. Its not any specific quality but rather the collective qualities of our genes that produces our identity as a species.

So no...none of that stuff.


The evidence is in history. How many times there has been theories that some scientists presented their evidence and insisted their theoretical conclusions are absolutely true? Yet, later, other scientists appeared and proved the older theories was not correct, or partially false, then it was replaced by yet better theory. Now there are evidences that suggests the current understanding of evolution. In the future as science improves, some of the conclusions that are considered true, might be proven false and be replace by a more correct and accurate ones. The evidences prove that all species has been evolving through millions of years from one shape to another. I think this is generally true, but the details of this evolution has a lot more to discover. Yet you insist the current science of evolution is absolutely true. That is the problem I see.
Poor argument is poor.
Scientific fact doesn't' mean infallible truth of the universe. But it is still a fact none the less. The amount of evidence for evolution is so astounding that it is one of the most substantiated theories of all time. You are going off of unsubstantiated religious ideology and a gut hunch that "meh I bet science got it wrong this time."

Feel free to jump off of a building because they might be wrong about this whole "gravity" thing too. For all you know god would catch you and put you down safely if you believed hard enough. This last part is obviously facetious but does adequately show you how absurd your position is.

If something is false or if you feel something that science has deemed fact to be flat out wrong, then you must have substantial evidence to the contrary. Simply by stating "meh science got things wrong in the past" isn't an argument at all. In fact even if science had gotten everything wrong 10,000 times, if the evidence holds up then it makes no difference.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
How does science define human? Did science always define human as it defines today? Will the science in future change its definition? Can science define human correctly?
What distinguishes human from animals is the power of intellect. What is the power of intellect related to? eyes? ears? memory? No! Many of animals have better eyes, ears or memory than us, yet, they don't possess intellect, and power of discovery of sciences.



The evidence is in history. How many times there has been theories that some scientists presented their evidence and insisted their theoretical conclusions are absolutely true? Yet, later, other scientists appeared and proved the older theories was not correct, or partially false, then it was replaced by yet better theory. Now there are evidences that suggests the current understanding of evolution. In the future as science improves, some of the conclusions that are considered true, might be proven false and be replace by a more correct and accurate ones. The evidences prove that all species has been evolving through millions of years from one shape to another. I think this is generally true, but the details of this evolution has a lot more to discover. Yet you insist the current science of evolution is absolutely true. That is the problem I see.

Read above what I just posted, that helps clear up a big misconception your having with the term "theory."

" insisted their theoretical conclusions are absolutely true?"

No one because its theoretical and has not been scientifically proven yet. Well there are a very few who might try though. LOL

"The evidences prove that all species has been evolving through millions of years from one shape to another."

With all life billions of years not millions, millions with us.

The dinosaurs lived for about 180 million years before they went extinct.

"How does science define human?"

"Homo sapiens sapiens"

Human DNA we sequenced the entire human genome.

How do you define different forms of the apes?

Are they all the same, monkeys, orangutans and gorillas?
 
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