The bright side of Atheism

[Shuttlecraft]

We don't believe in heaven or hell,

YOUNG BUNNY- "Well I'm old enough to leave the burrow for the first time, see you later" (runs into the woods)
OLDER BUNNIES- "Watch out for the fox!"
YB- "It's okay, I don't believe in fo...AARGHH!!!""

 

[Alceste]

I did not say you did. I even went so far as to modulate any mistaken insult that might have been taken. It is a default position that seems to be inevitable in a sense.

That is one problematic analogy. What rules? Can I use money after death? What evidence backs up the mans claims to being true either temporally or eternally. Your going to have to be much more relevant here. Analogies are hard to use with God.

Well moral laws are certainly good but that is not how anyone will ever get to heaven. I get to heaven by faith in Christ's merits not mine. So while I fail to obey I get the good stuff any way because no one could have merited perfection to begin with.

My point is that in almost every way to attempt to obey God is temporally beneficial. Countless lives have been wrecked and lost by doing the opposite. There is no loss in making an effort and potentially infinite gain. It would be different if I was asked to have cancer to get to heaven or fly a plane into a building to get to paradise. I am not. I am asked to do what is best for a man to do anyway.

I did not find Christ by looking for fire insurance. I found him by looking at evidence and past 27 years of bias. Anyway I don't want to press you any harder on this so I will leave it here. Have a good one.

Well, if we are talking about the offer of reward after death made by Christians, who claim it comes from god, there is zero evidence that god will ever pay up in the end.

So to use the billion dollar analogy, there is no evidence that you can use the money when you're dead. You just have to obey your master and believe you will eventually get something out of all your bowing and scraping besides sore knees. And if when you die, it turns out you only had one life to live and you spent it on your knees for nothing, what a waste! I actually can't imagine a crappier deal.

To be your own sovereign is to be in paradise already. I'd rather spend 75 years on my feet with my head held high in this beautiful world than all of eternity on my knees.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Forget the word "believe" mate, all that matters is that we LIKE Jesus..
Then when our bodies die, no way is he going to just forget his pals!
The bottom line is, he was a nice guy, so who wouldn't want to be his pal anyway?
He said to his mates at the last supper- "The next time I drink wine, I'll be drinking it with you in my fathers kingdom"

(That's me out then, I don't drink (sniffle)

How pathetic. I expect more from an adult.

 

[Alceste]

I imagine they do so because they are dealing with a very dishonest clientele (that looks misspelled). Christians have the exact opposite. Your analogies may be humorous but they are not very analogous.

I don't think the god described in the bible sounds all that honest. He didn't make us out of dirt and ribs, he didn't make plants before the sun, he forgot to even mention the Precambrian, Cambrian or Paleozoic eras, he can't quite decide if he's Jesus or Jesus's dad... He seems quite a sketchy character.

 

[Amechania]

To be your own sovereign is to be in paradise already. I'd rather spend 75 years on my feet with my head held high in this beautiful world than all of eternity on my knees.

I think you and Jesus would get along A-Okay.

 

[Alceste]

I think you and Jesus would get along A-Okay.

Oh, we get along fine. He's not even jealous I'm two timing him with Lao Tzu and Voltaire. He just wants me to be content.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Death is certain in either case. Might as well get the perks. One of my favorite quotes was in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Barron told the crusader he was marching to certain death. The crusader replied all death is certain.

Hi mate,
This interests me, so hopefully you're still around (in this thread) to discuss. Death is certain, no doubt about it. But I think the only way you can believe in Jesus/God is to belief in Jesus/God.

That is to say, even if I made the intellectual jump to say I'm sure belief in God is beneficial to mankind, that the world works better with a Abrahamaic belief in God, and that I would be a better person if I believed, that doesn't actually make me a believer.

It's no different to me deciding that I would be better off being a secular humanist, that the world would be a better place if we were all secular humanists, etc.

Taking a stab here, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you judge belief in God as vital in order to access Heaven. I know that belief is not consistent across all Christians, so sorry if I've mis-remembered.

But ultimately I can live by the tenets of Jesus, in so far as a man can. I can even follow these BETTER than someone else, who does honestly believe in God. If God then decides not to put me in Heaven, due to my non-belief, then so be it. My non-belief is honest. It's not hiding from God. And if there is a power, and they judge me by my actions, I'm more than comfortable.

If there's a greater power, and they judge me by my belief in that greater power, then I would call 'hypocrisy' and ultimately end up in hell, I guess. And whatever my thoughts at the time, be they anger, be they sorrow, or whatever else, that simply doesn't have the power to change my honest belief (or non-belief) now.

So, regardless of how rationale a position of belief is (in terms of not losing anything, versus possible gain), I could do no more than pay lip service to it. And I suspect there are people who do exactly that. If there is a God, he knows that anyway, right? He knows who is paying lip service. Who hedges their bets? (Not aiming that at you, btw, just a general statement)

So fair enough. He knows me, he can judge me. No use passing words through my lips my brain doesn't believe.

(Just to be clear, I actually have issues with belief in God, and don't see it as preferable for mankind. I also don't see it as a great evil/problem, which I guess some do. But I limited my comments here - hopefully - to what related to your comment only)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

YOUNG BUNNY- "Well I'm old enough to leave the burrow for the first time, see you later" (runs into the woods)
OLDER BUNNIES- "Watch out for the fox!"
YB- "It's okay, I don't believe in fo...AARGHH!!!""

Awww, shucks...I get it.
You Christian folks are the old bunnies, and us poor deluded atheists are the young bunnies about to get eaten by metaphorical foxes.

Well, pa, thanks for the advice. There are a bunch of other mentor type folks who gave me all SORTSA good advice, and I'm just trying to reconcile what you're saying here with theirs. It's a bit tough, though, I gotta say.

Most of their advice, be they Christian, Atheists, or I-Don't-Know-A-Lick-About-Their-Relgious-Convictionists, was a little easier to grasp and fit into a cohesive world view.

Things like;

• Treat others as you want to be treated
• Judge people not by how they treat those they can get something from, but by how they treat those around them they can get nothing from
• Material things don't buy happiness or even;
• Keep your dribble low when crossing over on the way to the basket

All good advice, in my opinion, and whilst they arrived at it for different reasons, I can fit it together and act accordingly.
What I'm having trouble building into my world view is a paternalistic pat on the head that suggests I should accept something because you do.

Where exactly do I draw the line in your metaphor? If the older bunnies suggest to me that this young Jesus fella is a false prophet, do I accept that or not?
What if they tell me 'Son, if bunnies were meant to fly, God-bunny woulda given us wings'?
What if they tell me 'There's nothing wrong with black bunnies, but ya gotta understand, black bunnies and white bunnies were made different. It doesn't go helping anyone to be mixing them all up'?
What if they tell me 'That bunny over there ain't normal, son. Who ever heard of a boy bunny wearing lipstick? It ain't right'?

So, ya see...some advice I just have to smile and nod, and say thanks for taking the time for giving me your honest belief, but I can't fit it with how I see the world. It doesn't make sense to me. Happy to explain why that is, if you want to consider an alternative. Happy to leave you be if you're not harming anyone otherwise.

Here's me smiling;
And nodding;:yes:

 

[Alceste]

Awww, shucks...I get it.
You Christian folks are the old bunnies, and us poor deluded atheists are the young bunnies about to get eaten by metaphorical foxes.

Well, pa, thanks for the advice. There are a bunch of other mentor type folks who gave me all SORTSA good advice, and I'm just trying to reconcile what you're saying here with theirs. It's a bit tough, though, I gotta say.

Most of their advice, be they Christian, Atheists, or I-Don't-Know-A-Lick-About-Their-Relgious-Convictionists, was a little easier to grasp and fit into a cohesive world view.

Things like;

• Treat others as you want to be treated
• Judge people not by how they treat those they can get something from, but by how they treat those around them they can get nothing from
• Material things don't buy happiness or even;
• Keep your dribble low when crossing over on the way to the basket

All good advice, in my opinion, and whilst they arrived at it for different reasons, I can fit it together and act accordingly.
What I'm having trouble building into my world view is a paternalistic pat on the head that suggests I should accept something because you do.

Where exactly do I draw the line in your metaphor? If the older bunnies suggest to me that this young Jesus fella is a false prophet, do I accept that or not?
What if they tell me 'Son, if bunnies were meant to fly, God-bunny woulda given us wings'?
What if they tell me 'There's nothing wrong with black bunnies, but ya gotta understand, black bunnies and white bunnies were made different. It doesn't go helping anyone to be mixing them all up'?
What if they tell me 'That bunny over there ain't normal, son. Who ever heard of a boy bunny wearing lipstick? It ain't right'?

So, ya see...some advice I just have to smile and nod, and say thanks for taking the time for giving me your honest belief, but I can't fit it with how I see the world. It doesn't make sense to me. Happy to explain why that is, if you want to consider an alternative. Happy to leave you be if you're not harming anyone otherwise.

Here's me smiling;
And nodding;:yes:

That's much more thoughtful than my reaction, which was thinking it's more like baby bunnies insisting there are monsters under the bed.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Here we all are, trapped in these squishy bodies on this spinning ball of mud sailing through space at 66,000 mph without knowing how we got here or where we're going, yet atheists seem to have got it all nicely figgered out, good for them..

 

[Bunyip]

Here we all are, trapped in these squishy bodies on this spinning ball of mud sailing through space at 66,000 mph without knowing how we got here or where we're going, yet atheists seem to have got it all nicely figgered out, good for them..

Well ok. So you are not an atheist - have you got it all figured out? Do you know how we got here or where we are going? I doubt it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Here we all are, trapped in these squishy bodies on this spinning ball of mud sailing through space at 66,000 mph without knowing how we got here or where we're going, yet atheists seem to have got it all nicely figgered out, good for them..

ROFL...too funny.
Oh, hang on...you're serious?

Speaking only for myself, as an atheist, there are plenty of things I don't have 'figured out'.

A small sample;

• How does gravity work?
• How do birds know where the frig they're going for Winter?
• Why is my jumpshot so inconsistent?
• What is love?

Some of these I'd prefer not to work out. The 'love' one for example. Atheism is far more about accepting what we know and what we don't, and that what we know will change (if you want to extrapolate that it's about more than simply not being a theist).

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Jesus said- "You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12),
so I suppose there are some things that our low-horsepower human brains can't ever take in, and if any Christian says he knows it all, tell him he's talking bollox..

 

[Bunyip]

Jesus said- "You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12),
so I suppose there are some things that our low-horsepower human brains can't ever take in, and if any Christian says he knows it all, tell him he's talking bollox..

Ok. So neither atheists nor theists know it all - what was your point then?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Ok. So neither atheists nor theists know it all - what was your point then?

Drat, I thought I'd seized the moral high ground by admitting I don't know everything, but now you admit atheists don't know everything either, so we're all dumb clucks and it's group hug time because admitting we know jack is the beginning of wisdom..
Tell us Mr Data-

[youtube]ZcV25N37-C4[/youtube]

 

[dgirl1986]

Jesus said- "You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12),
so I suppose there are some things that our low-horsepower human brains can't ever take in, and if any Christian says he knows it all, tell him he's talking bollox..

Low horsepower? Say what now.

 

[Bunyip]

Drat, I thought I'd seized the moral high ground by admitting I don't know everything, but now you admit atheists don't know everything either, so we're all dumb clucks and it's group hug time because admitting we know jack is the beginning of wisdom..
Tell us Mr Data-

[youtube]ZcV25N37-C4[/youtube]

Why equate not-knowing-everything to being dumb?

That is a false equivocation. Not having universal knowledge has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Speaking only for myself, as an atheist, there are plenty of things I don't have 'figured out'..

Me too mate, for example I can understand how the moon pulls the sea up towards it to create a high tide, but why is there a high tide at the same time on the other side of the earth???

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Why equate not-knowing-everything to being dumb?
That is a false equivocation. Not having universal knowledge has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever.

Jesus said-"I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (Matt 13:35)
and gave it his best shot to get it into our thick heads, so to their credit at least Christians are willing to hear him out..
Hey Spock will you listen?

"Affirmative, it would be illogical not to listen, I'm all ears"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Me too mate, for example I can understand how the moon pulls the sea up towards it to create a high tide, but why is there a high tide at the same time on the other side of the earth???

I've read about this one. I had a small period of tide-interest when Bill O'Reilly made his 'tide goes in, tide goes out' remark.

Anywhoos, this link is reasonably understandable and current (based on my admittedly limited understanding)

Refer particularly to the section : So why are there tidal bulges on opposite sides of Earth?

https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/tides.htm