The Chain of Infallibility

[Ben Avraham]

Really?

1Moses was pasturing the flocks of Jethro, his father in law, the chief of Midian, and he led the flocks after the free pastureland, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. אוּמשֶׁה הָיָה רֹעֶה אֶת צֹאן יִתְרוֹ חֹתְנוֹ כֹּהֵן מִדְיָן וַיִּנְהַג אֶת הַצֹּאן אַחַר הַמִּדְבָּר וַיָּבֹא אֶל הַר הָאֱלֹהִים חֹרֵבָה:
2An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed. בוַיֵּרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהֹוָה אֵלָיו בְּלַבַּת אֵשׁ מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיַּרְא וְהִנֵּה הַסְּנֶה בֹּעֵר בָּאֵשׁ וְהַסְּנֶה אֵינֶנּוּ אֻכָּל:
3So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?" גוַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אָסֻרָה נָּא וְאֶרְאֶה אֶת הַמַּרְאֶה הַגָּדֹל הַזֶּה מַדּוּעַ לֹא יִבְעַר הַסְּנֶה:

Well Jedster, you have all the right in the world to believe the way you please but, you ought to remember that Moses was a Prophet. Not only a prophet but the greatest of the Prophets in Israel. So, if you read Numbers 12:6 "When a Prophet of the Lord arises among you, I make Myself known to him in a vision. I speak with him in a dream." (JPS) So, the vision of the burning bush was a vision according to Numbers 12:6.

 

[Jedster]

Well Jedster, you have all the right in the world to believe the way you please but, you ought to remember that Moses was a Prophet. Not only a prophet but the greatest of the Prophets in Israel. So, if you read Numbers 12:6 "When a Prophet of the Lord arises among you, I make Myself known to him in a vision. I speak with him in a dream." (JPS) So, the vision of the burning bush was a vision according to Numbers 12:6.

I get it, so Exodus 3:1-3 is wrong.

Another message to follow

 

[Jedster]

Since you were not speaking metaphorically, neither did Moses. He was slumbering when he sat down to rest from taking care of the sheep of Jethro and had a vision of the bush on fire. The Lord caused that vision on Moses to reveal his mission to Egypt and to freed the People from slavery aka to perform the Exodus.

I originally was asking in response to your post where you said(to buddhist)
"That's why many from among my own people reject my views because, like Christians, they value faith beyond the truth of the Word. I do like to go for the view of direct knowledge."

I wanted to know what you meent by 'direct knowledge'. You clarified by saying you did not see any light.
For me 'direct knowledge' means 'direct experience of..'.

I really don't want to get into a Biblical argument since scriptiures hold no authority for me as they do you. i.e because something is written doesn't make it true.
So when did you make aliyah or are you a Sabra?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, not both aware. Speak for yourself and your awareness of your Messiah's kingdom. My Messiah's kingdom is already on earth. Read Exodus 19:5,6 and Ezekiel 37:22. Then, afterwards, I'll be the one to ask you to do me a favor. You must know that we don't have only each other to discuss the Word of God. So, of this enormous post of yours, I ask that you pinpoint whatever in your opinion points to Jesus so that I can tell you what's what. And please, it will help me very much if you quote where you have taken it from. That's what I do when I discuss the Tanach or the NT.

Hi Ben,

Your Messiah's kingdom has come? Who is your Messiah? I'm to reverence the Messiah (Psalm 2) lest he grow angry. I'd like to reverence him.

I already pinpointed a number of references in the Isaiah prophecy by setting them in all caps and writing "emphasis mine". I quoted Isaiah 49 for the prophecy--I'm surprised you weren't conversant with it since you say Messiah's Kingdom is here--NKJV if you prefer Soncino or etc.

Thanks!

 

[Ben Avraham]

I get it, so Exodus 3:1-3 is wrong.

Another message to follow

No, Exodus 3:1-3 is not wrong. Why would it be! Try yourself to pasture a flock of sheep in a hot desert and you will feel the heat and tiredness. Moses brought the sheep to drink and, while they were drinking, he sat down to rest and slumbered. Usually, it was during a slumber that a vision would occur. And usually the content of the vision was about what was bothering the prophet. Moses could not take off his mind the suffering of his people in Egypt.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hi Ben,

Your Messiah's kingdom has come? Who is your Messiah? I'm to reverence the Messiah (Psalm 2) lest he grow angry. I'd like to reverence him.

I already pinpointed a number of references in the Isaiah prophecy by setting them in all caps and writing "emphasis mine". I quoted Isaiah 49 for the prophecy--I'm surprised you weren't conversant with it since you say Messiah's Kingdom is here--NKJV if you prefer Soncino or etc.

Thanks!

Yes, my Messiah kingdom came when the Messiah returned from exile. (Exodus 19:5,6) My Messiah is the same as the one of Prophet Habakkuk if you read 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Now, Psalms 2:10-12 is not a reference to the Messiah but to HaShem Himself. Well, Isaiah 49 is about Israel if you read
Psalms 49:3. "You are My Servant Israel in whom I glory." I prefer only the Word of God in the Tanach.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I originally was asking in response to your post where you said(to buddhist)
"That's why many from among my own people reject my views because, like Christians, they value faith beyond the truth of the Word. I do like to go for the view of direct knowledge."

I wanted to know what you meent by 'direct knowledge'. You clarified by saying you did not see any light.
For me 'direct knowledge' means 'direct experience of..'.

I really don't want to get into a Biblical argument since scriptiures hold no authority for me as they do you. i.e because something is written doesn't make it true.
So when did you make aliyah or are you a Sabra?

No, I am not a Sabra. I made Aliyah. I could not see the commotion about the return of the Messiah and I jumped into the wagon of joy.

 

[Jedster]

No, Exodus 3:1-3 is not wrong. Why would it be! Try yourself to pasture a flock of sheep in a hot desert and you will feel the heat and tiredness. Moses brought the sheep to drink and, while they were drinking, he sat down to rest and slumbered. Usually, it was during a slumber that a vision would occur. And usually the content of the vision was about what was bothering the prophet. Moses could not take off his mind the suffering of his people in Egypt.

Now I remember you from a couple of other interfaith forums.
And, if I remember correctly, you are(were?) more interested in correcting peoples about the role of Jesus, rather than arguing with Rabbinic Jews.

You have your own unique interpretation of the Torah and the Greek Testament, which I am sure many here will find interesting

Since I am not a religous Jew, I'll let those that consider themselves so discuss with you.

No, I am not a Sabra. I made Aliyah. I could not see the commotion about the return of the Messiah and I jumped into the wagon of joy.

Me too, although the Messiah had nothing to do with it.
As a child in England, I was the youngest at the Seder table and usually went to answer the door so that the drinker of the extra cup could come in. I would often tremble in anticipation, since I answered to door alone. But alas noone was ever there even though we(kids) could have sworn we saw the wine in the special extra glass diminish
At the meal we would say"next year in Jerusalem".This always confused me as I knew there was no reason not to go now.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Now I remember you from a couple of other interfaith forums.
And, if I remember correctly, you are(were?) more interested in correcting peoples about the role of Jesus, rather than arguing with Rabbinic Jews.

You have your own unique interpretation of the Torah and the Greek Testament, which I am sure many here will find interesting

Since I am not a religous Jew, I'll let those that consider themselves so discuss with you.

Me too, although the Messiah had nothing to do with it.
As a child in England, I was the youngest at the Seder table and usually went to answer the door so that the drinker of the extra cup could come in. I would often tremble in anticipation, since I answered to door alone. But alas noone was ever there even though we(kids) could have sworn we saw the wine in the special extra glass diminish
At the meal we would say"next year in Jerusalem".This always confused me as I knew there was no reason not to go now.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, I do remember you. To Christians I teach how Jewish Jesus was and, to Jews, how Christian he was not. Neither community knows any thing about the truth of who was Jesus. While one community is dominated by Christian preconceived notions before the fear that Jesus' real identity could be revealed, the other is dominated by Rabbinical preconceived notions that Jesus could have been a Christian. I think they both confuse Jesus with Paul.

Regarding the drinker of the extra cup, it is only an impersonation of the reminding that for that family celebrating the Passover Seder the time could have arrived to consider returning aka making aliyah back to the Land of Israel.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

Mostly for the simple laws such as love one another, turn the other cheek, thou shalt not kill or steal etc no special infallible leader or interpreter is required.

Christ did not leave a Will so any presumptions of infallibility are just that, presumptions based upon man made interpretations of very vague passages of scripture which are in no way authoritative interpretations.

Successorship is not given to the popes or in Islam the Caliphate. To have undisputed successorship you must have a legal document signed and sealed from Christ or Muhammad or Buddha otherwise any claimed authority can always be disputed.

This is the reason over 30,000 sects do not accept the papacy because there is no written legal document handing successorship to them only a man made interpretation of a vague verse in the Bible which even does not mention infallibility.

 

[buddhist]

Mostly for the simple laws such as love one another, turn the other cheek, thou shalt not kill or steal etc no special infallible leader or interpreter is required.

This is the essence of early Buddhism.

Christ did not leave a Will so any presumptions of infallibility are just that, presumptions...

I agree, and Christ himself is also a presumption.

 

[Ben Avraham]

This is the essence of early Buddhism.

I agree, and Christ himself is also a presumption.

"Christ" to me is only a concept that means the anointed one of the Lord. Now, who is the Anointed One of the Lord?
If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One" aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Christ" cannot be the individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Christ in every generation? Obviously not. Christ is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[loverofhumanity]

"Christ" to me is only a concept that means the anointed one of the Lord. Now, who is the Anointed One of the Lord?
If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One" aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Christ" cannot be the individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Christ in every generation? Obviously not. Christ is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Christ existed. What I stated was that the concept of infallibility was presumptuous not Christ's existence. Sorry if there was some misunderstanding.

Christ existed and I'm glad He did and believe in Him as the redeemer of mankind.

 

[buddhist]

"Christ" to me is only a concept that means the anointed one of the Lord. Now, who is the Anointed One of the Lord?
If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One" aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Christ" cannot be the individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Christ in every generation? Obviously not. Christ is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Who is "Christ", your "Lord", "Habakkuk", "Jeremiah", etc? Since I cannot verify any of these things for myself, you might as well be quoting from the Books of Harry Potter.

 

[buddhist]

Christ existed. What I stated was that the concept of infallibility was presumptuous not Christ's existence. Sorry if there was some misunderstanding.

Christ existed and I'm glad He did and believe in Him as the redeemer of mankind.

Christ's existence is presumptuous, unless you're saying you met him for yourself?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christ's existence is presumptuous, unless you're saying you met him for yourself?

Christ lived on the earth but my knowledge of Him comes from communicating with Him through prayer and spiritually reading the Gospels. His Presence to me is just as real as any physical person.

Our spiritual senses are more sharp and aware than just our physical senses, that is if they have not atrophied from lack of use which would make us deny He even existed.

To the spiritually alive Christ exists always and did live on the earth. To others, I say they need to develop their spiritual senses to be able to see His reality and truth.

 

[buddhist]

Christ lived on the earth but my knowledge of Him comes from communicating with Him through prayer and spiritually reading the Gospels. His Presence to me is just as real as any physical person.

Our spiritual senses are more sharp and aware than just our physical senses, that is if they have not atrophied from lack of use which would make us deny He even existed.

To the spiritually alive Christ exists always and did live on the earth. To others, I say they need to develop their spiritual senses to be able to see His reality and truth.

So, it always goes back to personal experience, correct? In other words, we cannot know "Christ" or anyone else through history, documents, etc. since there is no chain of infallibility.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, it always goes back to personal experience, correct? In other words, we cannot know "Christ" or anyone else through history, documents, etc. since there is no chain of infallibility.

We research something but then decide for ourself upon that research whether we agree or not etc. People interpret differently according to education and purity of heart. But in my view a pure hearted person can see truth more easily than a person who has too much knowledge because often that knowledge blinds one from the truth as people get too attached to their own ideas.

So a college professor may be unable to appreciate the station of Christ whereas a simple fisherman who can't count may see Christ's reality clearly.

 

[buddhist]

We research something but then decide for ourself upon that research whether we agree or not etc. People interpret differently according to education and purity of heart...

Yes, Buddhism essentially teaches just that - transcendental wisdom comes naturally as a result of purity of heart/mind.