The Chain of Infallibility

[Ben Avraham]

So you aren't asking. You are being rhetorical. What if instead I demonstrated where you misinterpret one of the concepts above?

Well! Are you going to show me at least a single one prophecy in the Tanach about Jesus or are you not?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Really?

I hold the same argument with Christians, Muslims, and any other faith-based religion.

I never thought I would have this problem with Buddhists.

 

[buddhist]

I never thought I would have this problem with Buddhists.

The core of early Buddhism emphasizes direct knowledge. Faith-based systems are intrinsically antithetical to direct knowledge.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The core of early Buddhism emphasizes direct knowledge. Faith-based systems are intrinsically antithetical to direct knowledge.

That's why many from among my own people reject my views because, like Christians, they value faith beyond the truth of the Word. I do like to go for the view of direct knowledge.

 

[Jedster]

That's why many from among my own people reject my views because, like Christians, they value faith beyond the truth of the Word. I do like to go for the view of direct knowledge.

So, have you seen the light(bush) that Moshe saw on Sinia?
or
Do you (just) believe in what is written in the Torah?

 

[Jedster]

The core of early Buddhism emphasizes direct knowledge.

Same type of question as to Ben Avram
Does that mean that have direct knowledge though experience which others only are aware of by some writing?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, there is no double standard. It is two different standards.

Buddhism is about personal verification of universal truths in the here-and-now.
Christianity and other faith-based religions are based on blind faith in alleged historical facts.

On what basis do you say Buddhism is "about personal verification of universal truths in the here-and-now"? Are you making that determination from documents or from...?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well! Are you going to show me at least a single one prophecy in the Tanach about Jesus or are you not?

Ben, I did not take my own decision lightly. I made a decision based on the fact that I was unable to refute hundreds of Tanakh prophecies. One that is lovely, however, I can share, sure. Realize, Ben, that as in Tanakh itself, many prophecies have multiple fulfillment. Please save yourself time telling me what from this prophecy is yet to occur--we're both well aware that Messiah's Kingdom isn't yet on Earth in full bloom.

Do yourself a favor, Ben? Pray before you read the following (emphases mine):

“Listen, O coastlands, to Me,

And take heed, you peoples from afar!

The Lord has called Me from the WOMB;

From the matrix of My MOTHER He has made mention of My name.

2 And He has made My MOUTH LIKE A SHARP SWORD;

In the shadow of His hand He has HIDDEN Me,

And made Me a polished shaft;

In His quiver [where children are; Proverbs) He has hidden Me.”

3 “And He said to me,

‘YOU are My servant, O Israel,

In whom I will be glorified.’

4 Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain,

I have SPENT MY STRENGTH for nothing and IN VAIN;

Yet surely my just reward is with the Lord,

And my work with my God.’”

5 “And now the Lord says,

Who formed Me from the WOMB to be His Servant,

To bring Jacob back to Him,

So that Israel is gathered to Him

(For I [SINGULAR] shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,

And My God shall be My strength),

6 Indeed HE SAYS,

‘IT IS TOO SMALL A THING THAT YOU SHOULD BE MY SERVANT,

To raise up the tribes of Jacob,

And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;

I will also give YOU AS A LIGHT TO THE GENTILES,

That YOU should be My salvation TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.’”

7 Thus says the Lord,

The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,

To HIM WHOM MAN DESPISES,

To HIM WHOM THE NATION ABHORS,

To the Servant of rulers:

“Kings shall see and arise,

Princes also shall worship,

Because of the Lord who is faithful,

The Holy One of Israel;

And He has chosen You.”

8 Thus says the Lord:

“In an acceptable time I have heard You,

And in the day of salvation I have helped You;

I will preserve You and give You

As a covenant to the people,

To restore the earth,

To cause them to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That You may say to the prisoners, ‘Go forth,’

To those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’

“They shall feed along the roads,

And their pastures shall be on all desolate heights.

10 They shall neither hunger nor thirst,

Neither heat nor sun shall strike them;

For He who has mercy on them will lead them,

Even by the springs of water He will guide them.

11 I will make each of My mountains a road,

And My highways shall be elevated.

12 Surely these shall come from afar;

Look! Those from the north and the west,

And these from the land of Sinim.”

13 Sing, O heavens!

Be joyful, O earth!

And break out in singing, O mountains!

For the Lord has comforted His people,

And will have mercy on His afflicted.

God Will Remember Zion

14 But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,

And my Lord has forgotten me.”

15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,

And not have compassion on the son of her womb?

Surely they may forget,

Yet I will not forget you.

16 See, I have INSCRIBED YOU ON THE PALMS OF MY HANDS;

Your walls are continually before Me.

17 Your sons shall make haste;

Your destroyers and those who laid you waste

Shall go away from you.

18 Lift up your eyes, look around and see;

All these gather together and come to you.

As I live,” says the Lord,

“You shall surely clothe yourselves with them all as an ornament,

And bind them on you as a bride does.

19 “For your waste and desolate places,

And the land of your destruction,

Will even now be too small for the inhabitants;

And those who swallowed you up will be far away.

20 The children you will have,

After you have lost the others,

Will say again in your ears,

‘The place is too small for me;

Give me a place where I may dwell.’

21 Then you will say in your heart,

‘Who has begotten these for me,

Since I have lost my children and am desolate,

A captive, and wandering to and fro?

And who has brought these up?

There I was, left alone;

But these, where were they?’”

22 Thus says the Lord God:

“Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations,

And set up My standard for the peoples;

They shall bring your sons in their arms,

And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders;

23 Kings shall be your foster fathers,

And their queens your nursing mothers;

They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth,

And lick up the dust of your feet.

Then you will know that I am the Lord,

For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me.”

24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty,

Or the captives of the righteous[c] be delivered?

25 But thus says the Lord:

“Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away,

And the prey of the terrible be delivered;

For I will contend with him who contends with you,

And I will save your children.

26 I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh,

And they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine.

All flesh shall know

That I, THE LORD, AM YOUR SAVIOR,

And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

 

[buddhist]

That's why many from among my own people reject my views because, like Christians, they value faith beyond the truth of the Word. I do like to go for the view of direct knowledge.

What stories in your Torah and/or Tanach do you have direct knowledge of?

 

[buddhist]

On what basis do you say Buddhism is "about personal verification of universal truths in the here-and-now"? Are you making that determination from documents or from...?

Countless places in the canon shows the Buddha describing his teachings thus: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

Yes, the Buddha presents many "spiritual" ideas in the scriptures, but he also invites his disciples to come to see for ourselves and to verify them for ourselves, because they are timeless truths. These are not truths which are limited by time and space (as is found in other religious traditions).

 

[Ben Avraham]

What stories in your Torah and/or Tanach do you have direct knowledge of?

If by direct knowledge you mean learning by experience and not from another through the written word, no one has direct knowledge of any thing whatsoever. Neither from the Tanach nor from your holy book whatever it be. Every thing you learn from it, has already been chewed by another.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, I did not take my own decision lightly. I made a decision based on the fact that I was unable to refute hundreds of Tanakh prophecies. One that is lovely, however, I can share, sure. Realize, Ben, that as in Tanakh itself, many prophecies have multiple fulfillment. Please save yourself time telling me what from this prophecy is yet to occur--we're both well aware that Messiah's Kingdom isn't yet on Earth in full bloom.

No, not both aware. Speak for yourself and your awareness of your Messiah's kingdom. My Messiah's kingdom is already on earth. Read Exodus 19:5,6 and Ezekiel 37:22. Then, afterwards, I'll be the one to ask you to do me a favor. You must know that we don't have only each other to discuss the Word of God. So, of this enormous post of yours, I ask that you pinpoint whatever in your opinion points to Jesus so that I can tell you what's what. And please, it will help me very much if you quote where you have taken it from. That's what I do when I discuss the Tanach or the NT.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ben Avraham]

So, have you seen the light(bush) that Moshe saw on Sinia? or Do you (just) believe in what is written in the Torah?

Hoping that you are speaking metaphorically, my answer is YES. I have had my day when I did see the light (bush) that Moses saw at Sinai. YES, I did have my day when, according to Christian vernacular, I was born again. Since the day the Lord gathered the House of Israel from the peoples among the nations which we had been dispersed and has shown Himself Holy through us in the sight of the nations. Hence, we have been settled in our own soil which the Lord has given to our own People. (Ezekiel 28:25)

 

[Jedster]

Hoping that you are speaking metaphorically, my answer is YES. I have had my day when I did see the light (bush) that Moses saw at Sinai. YES, I did have my day when, according to Christian vernacular, I was born again. Since the day the Lord gathered the House of Israel from the peoples among the nations which we had been dispersed and has shown Himself Holy through us in the sight of the nations. Hence, we have been settled in our own soil which the Lord has given to our own People. (Ezekiel 28:25)

No, I was not speaking metaphorically. You did not actually see any light as Moshe did.
Thanks for answering.

 

[buddhist]

If by direct knowledge you mean learning by experience and not from another through the written word, no one has direct knowledge of any thing whatsoever. Neither from the Tanach nor from your holy book whatever it be. Every thing you learn from it, has already been chewed by another.

I know suffering for myself. I know cause and effect for myself. I didn't need someone else to teach me about them. In fact, these things cannot be taught, but can only be seen for one's self.

The things we communicate via our holy books are simply others' observations and commentary about those laws, things which we must confirm for ourselves - they're not to be believed on faith.

 

[Jedster]

I know suffering for myself. I know cause and effect for myself. I didn't need someone else to teach me about them. In fact, these things cannot be taught, but can only be seen for one's self.

@buddhist The things we communicate via our holy books are simply others' observations and commentary about those laws, things which we must confirm for ourselves - they're not to be believed on faith.

Nice & eloquent answer which mirrors my own attitude to life. Thanks.

 

[buddhist]

Same type of question as to Ben Avram
Does that mean that have direct knowledge though experience which others only are aware of by some writing?

(Sorry, I only just saw this post of yours!)

In Buddhism, everyone has access to the same environment from which we can gain direct knowledge. It only takes open eyes to perceive that knowledge.

 

[Jedster]

(Sorry, I only just saw this post of yours!)

In Buddhism, everyone has access to the same environment from which we can gain direct knowledge. It only takes open eyes to perceive that knowledge.

LOl, I thought your reply to Ben Avraham was to me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No, I was not speaking metaphorically. You did not actually see any light as Moshe did.
Thanks for answering.

Since you were not speaking metaphorically, neither did Moses. He was slumbering when he sat down to rest from taking care of the sheep of Jethro and had a vision of the bush on fire. The Lord caused that vision on Moses to reveal his mission to Egypt and to freed the People from slavery aka to perform the Exodus.

 

[Jedster]

Since you were not speaking metaphorically, neither did Moses. He was slumbering when he sat down to rest from taking care of the sheep of Jethro and had a vision of the bush on fire. The Lord caused that vision on Moses to reveal his mission to Egypt and to freed the People from slavery aka to perform the Exodus.

Really?

1Moses was pasturing the flocks of Jethro, his father in law, the chief of Midian, and he led the flocks after the free pastureland, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. אוּמשֶׁה הָיָה רֹעֶה אֶת צֹאן יִתְרוֹ חֹתְנוֹ כֹּהֵן מִדְיָן וַיִּנְהַג אֶת הַצֹּאן אַחַר הַמִּדְבָּר וַיָּבֹא אֶל הַר הָאֱלֹהִים חֹרֵבָה:
2An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed. בוַיֵּרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהֹוָה אֵלָיו בְּלַבַּת אֵשׁ מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיַּרְא וְהִנֵּה הַסְּנֶה בֹּעֵר בָּאֵשׁ וְהַסְּנֶה אֵינֶנּוּ אֻכָּל:
3So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?" גוַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אָסֻרָה נָּא וְאֶרְאֶה אֶת הַמַּרְאֶה הַגָּדֹל הַזֶּה מַדּוּעַ לֹא יִבְעַר הַסְּנֶה: