The Chain of Infallibility

[Ben Avraham]

Who is "Christ", your "Lord", "Habakkuk", "Jeremiah", etc? Since I cannot verify any of these things for myself, you might as well be quoting from the Books of Harry Potter.

You mean, you don't have a Bible or have never read a Bible before? How can you discuss with Jews or Christians if
you have no idea about a Bible? Our Lord is also known as the Primal Cause for having caused the universe to exist. The word "Christ" means anointed. For Christians it was Jesus and for the Jews is the Jewish People themselves. Habakkuk and Jeremiah were two of the prophets of the Creator of the Universe.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Christ existed. What I stated was that the concept of infallibility was presumptuous not Christ's existence. Sorry if there was some misunderstanding.

Christ existed and I'm glad He did and believe in Him as the redeemer of mankind.

If you are talking about Jesus, how did he redeem Mankind? The world was unredeemed before Jesus was born and remained so after his was gone. Prophet Isaiah made it clear enough that to get redeemed, one must set things right with HaShem so that his or her sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, one must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) If you want it from Jesus himself, he implied that to get redeemed, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you are talking about Jesus, how did he redeem Mankind? The world was unredeemed before Jesus was born and remained so after his was gone. Prophet Isaiah made it clear enough that to get redeemed, one must set things right with HaShem so that his or her sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, one must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) If you want it from Jesus himself, he implied that to get redeemed, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

My belief is that Christ was a Manifestation from God Who came to bring people back to God. By drawing close to Christ and accepting His Teachings we become closer to the Divine.

But I believe that about all the Great Educators as well not just Jesus. Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna all taught truth.

 

[Ben Avraham]

My belief is that Christ was a Manifestation from God Who came to bring people back to God. By drawing close to Christ and accepting His Teachings we become closer to the Divine.

But I believe that about all the Great Educators as well not just Jesus. Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna all taught truth.

The whole People of Israel was and still is a manifestation from God. The Lord said, "All the earth is Mine, but you (Israel) shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words hat you shall speak to the children of Israel. (Exodus 19:5,6) Besides, "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. (Exodus 4:22,23)

 

[buddhist]

You mean, you don't have a Bible or have never read a Bible before? How can you discuss with Jews or Christians if
you have no idea about a Bible? Our Lord is also known as the Primal Cause for having caused the universe to exist. The word "Christ" means anointed. For Christians it was Jesus and for the Jews is the Jewish People themselves. Habakkuk and Jeremiah were two of the prophets of the Creator of the Universe.

I've read the Bible for over 30 years. I was stating that I could not verify any of those stories for myself, not that I was not aware of them.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, Exodus 3:1-3 is not wrong. Why would it be! Try yourself to pasture a flock of sheep in a hot desert and you will feel the heat and tiredness. Moses brought the sheep to drink and, while they were drinking, he sat down to rest and slumbered. Usually, it was during a slumber that a vision would occur. And usually the content of the vision was about what was bothering the prophet. Moses could not take off his mind the suffering of his people in Egypt.

Ben,

I walked through an entire chapter of the Hebrew scriptures and underscored them for you and then answered your question. Are you going to continue to ignore the Messianic prophecy YOU asked me to share with YOU or at least can you let me know if you're still building a refutation?

You were very abrupt with me and I find myself wondering why I wasted time or if I have wasted time to actually provide you with such an important prophecy.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben,

I walked through an entire chapter of the Hebrew scriptures and underscored them for you and then answered your question. Are you going to continue to ignore the Messianic prophecy YOU asked me to share with YOU or at least can you let me know if you're still building a refutation?

You were very abrupt with me and I find myself wondering why I wasted time or if I have wasted time to actually provide you with such an important prophecy.

I think I have told you that there is no prophecy at all in the Tanach about Jesus as the Messiah or as any thing else whatsoever. The problem is that you just can't get rid of Christian preconceived notions. Again! Mention the quote and I'll tell you what the quote is about. If I fail, my proposal is on.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I've read the Bible for over 30 years. I was stating that I could not verify any of those stories for myself, not that I was not aware of them.

So, why discard them as fictional stories?

 

[Ben Avraham]

My belief is that Christ was a Manifestation from God Who came to bring people back to God. By drawing close to Christ and accepting His Teachings we become closer to the Divine.

But I believe that about all the Great Educators as well not just Jesus. Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna all taught truth.

The teachings of Jesus were according to his gospel aka the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise. I think the man you must go for was Paul and not Jesus.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The teachings of Jesus were according to his gospel aka the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise. I think the man you must go for was Paul and not Jesus.

To me all truth comes from the same Source. I think we all get our spiritual fix from the same Reality. So I respect you brother.

 

[Ben Avraham]

To me all truth comes from the same Source. I think we all get our spiritual fix from the same Reality. So I respect you brother.

To me all truth comes from the same Source. I think we all get our spiritual fix from the same Reality. So I respect you brother.

The problem is that the Truth is One and of an absolute Oneness. I am sure you agree with me that there is no more than one Truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The problem is that the Truth is One and of an absolute Oneness. I am sure you agree with me that there is no more than one Truth.

Yes truth is one.

 

[buddhist]

So, why discard them as fictional stories?

I'm agnostic to them, since I cannot verify any of them for myself. In the same way, if someone came up to me and said "here, read and believe this book about Harry Potter", I would say similarly - I cannot verify any of it for myself.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think I have told you that there is no prophecy at all in the Tanach about Jesus as the Messiah or as any thing else whatsoever. The problem is that you just can't get rid of Christian preconceived notions. Again! Mention the quote and I'll tell you what the quote is about. If I fail, my proposal is on.

I quoted an entire chapter of Tanakh! How can you be so dismissive? I posted this specifically by your request, in my post # 208, and then you asked for clarification, which I gave. Please tell us all what # 208 is "really about" if not Jesus of Bethlehem.

 

[metis]

Most Christian theologians that I have read really do not believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem, instead feeling that it's just the authors' ways of drawing a parallel between Jesus and David. IOW, it has a more symbolic value, which is not at all unusual in traditional Jewish literature.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I quoted an entire chapter of Tanakh! How can you be so dismissive? I posted this specifically by your request, in my post # 208, and then you asked for clarification, which I gave. Please tell us all what # 208 is "really about" if not Jesus of Bethlehem.

How many times do you want me to say the same thing over and over again? I checked your quotes and I found nothing about Jesus. You see because of your Christian preconceived notions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I'm agnostic to them, since I cannot verify any of them for myself. In the same way, if someone came up to me and said "here, read and believe this book about Harry Potter", I would say similarly - I cannot verify any of it for myself.

It's okay, I understand your point. Almost the same happens to me when discussing with a Christian. The difference is that I do verify their claims and I see nothing of what they claim.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How many times do you want me to say the same thing over and over again? I checked your quotes and I found nothing about Jesus. You see because of your Christian preconceived notions.

Ben, that is not a strong refutation of my points. There were a dozen pictures of the historic Y'shua in that one Isaiah chapter alone and saying "preconceived notions" does not replace the facts of the matter.

There absolutely ARE statements about Jesus in that chapter and hundreds of others. You may have "found nothing" because like many, you have a few snippets of NT to rely upon but have never really read the NT scriptures.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, that is not a strong refutation of my points. There were a dozen pictures of the historic Y'shua in that one Isaiah chapter alone and saying "preconceived notions" does not replace the facts of the matter.

There absolutely ARE statements about Jesus in that chapter and hundreds of others. You may have "found nothing" because like many, you have a few snippets of NT to rely upon but have never really read the NT scriptures.

Listen BB, do you understand what plagiarism is? I hope so! The NT was written many years after the Tanach. It is only obvious that a lot of plagiarism took place in order to build the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Wait a little longer and you might get a modern Bible translated by "Messianic Jews" where they add the name of Jesus to all Messianic references.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Listen BB, do you understand what plagiarism is? I hope so! The NT was written many years after the Tanach. It is only obvious that a lot of plagiarism took place in order to build the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Wait a little longer and you might get a modern Bible translated by "Messianic Jews" where they add the name of Jesus to all Messianic references.

I can certainly understand your theory of slavish mimicry or copying of prophecies. But there is way too much historical fact underpinning both testaments, and way too much gematria. For example, the Matthew geneaology contains the most extraordinary gematria making it a worthy heir of Penteteuch gematria, and all those names weren't plagiarized, they were the real names. Magnificent that Jesus's immediate (post-exilic) antecedents fit the gematria!

Or for another example, elsewhere I explain how the manner of Jesus's life and death fulfilled prophecies. How come all the Jewish people back THEN didn't shout to the rooftops "these things never occurred!" Paul tells one leader, "you know all these things happened in Jerusalem and weren't done in some quiet corner". No, our Jewish people would have clamped the lid on the NT if it wasn't all truth.