The Challenge in the Qur'an

[YmirGF]

Part Four:

So, we conclude that:

1- The Quran was in Arabic because if it wasn't, people would have easily said that Mohammed have brought this from the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah, Injil, etc).

But TashaN, Muhammad was still accused of doing just that regardless, so the fact he spoke it in Arabic isn’t terribly convincing. I’m really not sure why somebody would think that this would make it convincing.

2- Islam is not only for Arabs, but knowing some Arabic is essential in order to practice the rituals. I see people from other religions who would memorize certain words and say it during their rituals but they don't understand what it means and even if they understood the literal meaning, they wouldn't know the root of this word and how significance it's.

I agree, but saying that Islam is not only for Arabs is not the same as saying that it is for all of humanity.

3- The challenge supposed to be in Arabic because it's absolutely no easy task to compare a very rich language like Arabic with a modern simple language like English for instance. This is common sense people, so go pick something else to complain about.

What an amazingly ignorant statement, TashaN – even for you.

-------------------------------------------​

Now, let's see how to be up to the challenge. the "Surah like it" as Ibn Hayan say have to be:

1- Like it, in its perfect structure, and the way it's nicely put, and the unique way in telling it, and it's fascinating and strange way, and to be short and perfect in meaning, the way Quran is.

2- Like it, in the way it tells us about the past, and the future.

3- Like it, because it has to contain the unique way of telling about the reward and punishment, wisdom, proverbs, examples, stories, etc.

4- Like it, in its truth, and it supposed to be unable to be changed or altered.

5- Like it, to be in Arabic, just like the Quran, from its own nature.

6- Like it, in a way that you always feel you are reading something new, you always have that feeling that you get a new meaning every time you read the same exact verse, the way Quran is.

7- Like it, in a way that those who listen to it never feel bored when they do so even if they listened to it all over and over and over again, and in way that its miracles never end, and its amazing signs never vanish with time.

8- Like it, in its continuous verses, and miracles.

I can go on if you want. Before coming here aimlessly and foolishly trying to talk about the Quran, you better go and read what experts say about it.

Hehe.

But, honestly, TashaN doesn’t this all simply underscore the impossibility of the challenge?
Doesn’t it actually make a mockery of the challenge itself?

If there is virtually no possibility of anyone ever succeeding against the challenge then it isn’t a fair challenge to begin with. It’s a setup or rigged system.

That much should be plain and Ibn Hayan’s comments underscore this. Now the cosmic kick in the head. On top of all these ludicrous guidelines is the promise that any challenger who fails will be rewarded with an all expenses paid holiday in the Hellfire.

Can you tell me why anyone, in their right mind, would consider taking the so-called “challenge” seriously?

Of course, anybody can read the Quran, but can everybody know that the Quran contains all of the above? of course not. Experts in language, literature, religions, voices, etc, have the ability to evaluate such a masterpiece.

Ok, so Ghostaka is on crack saying that everyone, Muslim and non-Muslims would judge the challenger. (It’s ok, as that didn’t sound reasonable.) Fatihah is also sniffing glue because he seems to think that as long as your fanatical followers can overthrow your present government that would prove the worth of the challenger's work.

Now you trot out and say that we would have to leave it in the hands of experts.
Can I assume that these would be Muslim experts?
Do I get three guesses as to what their conclusion would be?

I didn't attempt to give a real reply before because until now i didn't see a real challenge.

I could not agree more, TashaN. Personally, I don’t see a challenge in the Qur’an either. I see hyperbolic rhetoric, but nothing that one can sink their teeth into. I never thought for a second that you would agree. This is most unexpected. :flirt:

I saw nothing in most of the posts in this thread except arrogance, ignorance, and denial, but all of this need to stop now.

I must admit, I am surprised that you would speak so strongly against your “brothers” and “sisters”, TashaN. I am in 100% agreement. Virtually all of the Muslim posts have been arrogant, ignorant or in denial. It is still shocking to see that you see it too. Wonders never cease. :yes:

 

[Fatihah]

Part Four:
But TashaN, Muhammad was still accused of doing just that regardless, so the fact he spoke it in Arabic isn’t terribly convincing. I’m really not sure why somebody would think that this would make it convincing.

I agree, but saying that Islam is not only for Arabs is not the same as saying that it is for all of humanity.

What an amazingly ignorant statement, TashaN – even for you.

-------------------------------------------​

Hehe.

But, honestly, TashaN doesn’t this all simply underscore the impossibility of the challenge?
Doesn’t it actually make a mockery of the challenge itself?

If there is virtually no possibility of anyone ever succeeding against the challenge then it isn’t a fair challenge to begin with. It’s a setup or rigged system.

That much should be plain and Ibn Hayan’s comments underscore this. Now the cosmic kick in the head. On top of all these ludicrous guidelines is the promise that any challenger who fails will be rewarded with an all expenses paid holiday in the Hellfire.

Can you tell me why anyone, in their right mind, would consider taking the so-called “challenge” seriously?

Ok, so Ghostaka is on crack saying that everyone, Muslim and non-Muslims would judge the challenger. (It’s ok, as that didn’t sound reasonable.) Fatihah is also sniffing glue because he seems to think that as long as your fanatical followers can overthrow your present government that would prove the worth of the challenger's work.

Now you trot out and say that we would have to leave it in the hands of experts. Can I assume that these would be Muslim experts? Do I get three guesses as to what their conclusion would be?

I could not agree more, TashaN. Personally, I don’t see a challenge in the Qur’an either. I see hyperbolic rhetoric, but nothing that one can sink their teeth into. I never thought for a second that you would agree. This is most unexpected. :flirt:
I must admit, I am surprised that you would speak so strongly against your “brothers” and “sisters”, TashaN. I am in 100% agreement. Virtually all of the Muslim posts have been arrogant, ignorant or in denial. It is still shocking to see that you see it too. Wonders never cease. :yes:

Response: And once again the challenge goes unanswered. You can create post after post in response to another post, yet not a single letter is produced to answer the challenge. Subhan Allah.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: And once again the challenge goes unanswered. You can create post after post in response to another post, yet not a single letter is produced to answer the challenge. Subhan Allah.

But why would anyone in their right mind WANT to answer the so-called "challenge", Fatihah? It would be a waste of time. (Would it make a difference to you if I wrote about conquest for awhile?) The simple fact is that I am challenging the legitimacy of the so-called challenge itself. It's simply not accurate to call it a challenge. Perhaps it is a translation error.

 

[Ghostaka]

Just to address something that hasn't been before:

I agree, but saying that Islam is not only for Arabs is not the same as saying that it is for all of humanity.

Chapter 2 (The Cow) of the Holy Qur'an:

21. O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

168. O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.

213. Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allāh sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it – after the clear proofs came to them – out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allāh guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allāh guides whom He wills to a straight path.

There are numerous areas of the Quran where Allah addresses "mankind" but time deos not permit me to quote all of them! Therefore how isn't Islam for all of humanity?

As for the rest.. I leave it to my brothers and sisters to see your ignorance.

Peace be upon you.

p.s. you see what I meant about trying to downplay the conclusion so as add more pages to the thread and make people forget that explanation? Wow.

 

[Fatihah]

But why would anyone in their right mind WANT to answer the so-called "challenge", Fatihah? It would be a waste of time. (Would it make a difference to you if I wrote about conquest for awhile?) The simple fact is that I am challenging the legitimacy of the so-called challenge itself. It's simply not accurate to call it a challenge. Perhaps it is a translation error.

Response: A person in their right mind wants to know the truth. That's why they would accept the challenge.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: A person in their right mind wants to know the truth. That's why they would accept the challenge.

Truth is relative, Fatihah, only fools think it is something else.

 

[kai]

Correct :yes:



Our five daily prayers must be done in Arabic. Du'a or supplication during the prayer could be done in the believer's native language, but the recitation of the Quran must be done in Arabic since it is the holy text and had been revealed in Arabic.

I am confused

 

[kai]

Response: A person in their right mind wants to know the truth. That's why they would accept the challenge.

which one TashaNs in Arabic or yours in any language?

 

[kai]

Just to address something that hasn't been before:

Chapter 2 (The Cow) of the Holy Qur'an:

21. O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

168. O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.

213. Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allāh sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it – after the clear proofs came to them – out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allāh guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allāh guides whom He wills to a straight path.

There are numerous areas of the Quran where Allah addresses "mankind" but time deos not permit me to quote all of them! Therefore how isn't Islam for all of humanity?
The offer to submit is open to all of humanity yes!

As for the rest.. I leave it to my brothers and sisters to see your ignorance.

Peace be upon you.

p.s. you see what I meant about trying to downplay the conclusion so as add more pages to the thread and make people forget that explanation? Wow.

The explanation to what? the challenge? we have two running at the moment the "it must be in Arabic" camp and "the challenge is universal and can be done in any language" camp. running along side that we have challenges judged by themselves,challenges judged by everyone, by Muslims, and challenges judged by scholars. and i think its a good thing we asked maybe you can get this cleared up in your own minds so you can give us a straight answer.

 

[TashaN]

As i mentioned in my previous post, the challenge should be judged by experts from all fields related to religious science, language, literature, sounds, etc. And of course i mean any expert because if we said they have to be Muslims they can easily be biased because they believe no one can challenge the Quran, isn't it kai?

That's why i didn't say that experts have to be Muslims although there is no problem if some of them are Muslims, and i really don't know why some of you thought i said otherwise. I thought my post was clear.

 

[kai]

As i mentioned in my previous post, the challenge should be judged by experts from all fields related to religious science, language, literature, sounds, etc. And of course i mean any expert because if we said they have to be Muslims they can easily be biased because they believe no one can challenge the Quran, isn't it kai?

That's why i didn't say that experts have to be Muslims although there is no problem if some of them are Muslims, and i really don't know why some of you thought i said otherwise. I thought my post was clear.

well thats your postition clear TashaN thank you , and i think we should add that these experts must be able to read the Quran in its original form I.E Quranic Arabic otherwise they wont have a clue will they.

Just one more thing which is Mestemias question really , where do you get this from? Quran? Hadith?

 

[England my lionheart]

The challenge comes from these verses,correct?
<UL>Al-Baqarah 2: 23
Yunus 10: 38
Hu'd 11: 13
Al-Israa 17: 85 - 88
Al-Toor 52: 33 - 34

The following is from a website called understanding Islam who agree with what i posted earlier and it makes sense.

A close look at all these verses shall show that, actually, they do not constitute a challenge. On the contrary, these verses actually state that the rejecters of the Prophet (pbuh) say that he (the Prophet) has himself written the book and then has wrongfully ascribed it to God. In the referred verses, God says that if the rejecters are so sure that Mohammad (pbuh) has written this book himself, then why don't they produce a book like it too (Al-Toor 52: 33 - 34; Al-Israa 17: 85 - 88). If they can't produce a book like the Qur'an , then they should try and produce ten chapters like the chapters of the Qur'an (Hu'd 11: 13). In case that too is not possible, then they should try to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur'an (Al-Baqarah 2: 23; Yunus 10: 38).

A thorough understanding of the context of these verses clearly shows that these verses actually do not constitute a universal challenge; they specifically address the rejecters of Quraish who, not only fully appreciated the quality of the language of the Qur'an but also understood its message directly (in their native language). The tone of these verses actually entails an element of surprise and mock disbelief that how can the people who fully appreciate the standard of the language and the message of the Qur'an write it off as Mohammad (pbuh)'s own production. It is in this context that they are asked to produce one or a few chapters of the same literary quality, which also entails the kind of effect that the Qur'an had on its listeners

It think you will agree it makes sense,the challenge has been miconstrued as a universal challenge which is backed up by the fact that there is no consensus among Muslims concerning the challenge ie criteria/Judge.

 

[Fatihah]

which one TashaNs in Arabic or yours in any language?

Response: I've explained this already in post 439 of page 44. As explained, it depends on what you take objection to. The qur'an is a miracle with many miracles. It's arabic is not the only miracle. The confusion seems to come from the question itself.

If you are answering the challenge and saying that you can produce something like the qur'an, of course it must be in arabic because the qur'an is in arabic. However, if you are asking for proof of the authenticity of the qur'an, I can prove it's authenticity from one or many of the miracles of the qur'an without using the miracle of the arabic. There are scientic miracles, prophecies, inspirational miracles, miracles of the qur'an's divine guidance and guardianship over it, miracles of the prophet himself not mentioned in the qur'an, etc.

So to answer your question as to whether it should be in arabic, it depends on why exactly you are answering the challenge and exactly what you are in doubt of concerning the qur'an.

 

[Fatihah]

The challenge comes from these verses,correct?
<UL>Al-Baqarah 2: 23
Yunus 10: 38
Hu'd 11: 13
Al-Israa 17: 85 - 88
Al-Toor 52: 33 - 34

The following is from a website called understanding Islam who agree with what i posted earlier and it makes sense.

A close look at all these verses shall show that, actually, they do not constitute a challenge. On the contrary, these verses actually state that the rejecters of the Prophet (pbuh) say that he (the Prophet) has himself written the book and then has wrongfully ascribed it to God. In the referred verses, God says that if the rejecters are so sure that Mohammad (pbuh) has written this book himself, then why don't they produce a book like it too (Al-Toor 52: 33 - 34; Al-Israa 17: 85 - 88). If they can't produce a book like the Qur'an , then they should try and produce ten chapters like the chapters of the Qur'an (Hu'd 11: 13). In case that too is not possible, then they should try to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur'an (Al-Baqarah 2: 23; Yunus 10: 38).

A thorough understanding of the context of these verses clearly shows that these verses actually do not constitute a universal challenge; they specifically address the rejecters of Quraish who, not only fully appreciated the quality of the language of the Qur'an but also understood its message directly (in their native language). The tone of these verses actually entails an element of surprise and mock disbelief that how can the people who fully appreciate the standard of the language and the message of the Qur'an write it off as Mohammad (pbuh)'s own production. It is in this context that they are asked to produce one or a few chapters of the same literary quality, which also entails the kind of effect that the Qur'an had on its listeners

It think you will agree it makes sense,the challenge has been miconstrued as a universal challenge which is backed up by the fact that there is no consensus among Muslims concerning the challenge ie criteria/Judge.

Response: The challenge of the arabic was the primary miracle for the arabs of that time but the challenge is still universal. The miracles of the qur'an is not just its arabic. There are some miracles which do not have the same effect as others do to the change of time. In other words, the linguistic style of the qur'an's arabic was an impresive miracle to those arabs then because they were a people who prided themselves on poetry and beautiful preaching but today that is not the case. So the challenge still stands, however it doesn't have the same effect.

But as I've said before, the arabic is not it's only miracle and certain miracles are best for certain times. For example, none of the scientific miracles of the qur'an would have worked because back then, that knowledge was not known. However, today, the knowledge is known so we can now use them as proof of the qur'an. The miracle of splitting the moon by Muhammad (pbuh) was a good miracle then but however, the miracle can't be performed by us now so the miracle is not as useful. So some miracles are more useful than others due to the time and the people. I agree. But the challenge of the qur'an itself is still universal because there are many more miracles in the qur'an and prophecies that have still yet to be fulfilled.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well Fatihah,i have looked at these so called scientific miracles before but i cannot see a miracle there at all,the ones that have been purported to be miracles are very vague whereas if Pythagorous was in the Quran and his Theorum was recieved from devine sources i would be impressed,however "Mountains as pegs" does'nt really cut it.
From my point of view as a non believer i cannot see it as a universal challenge and does'nt prove anything other than the Quaraish were unable to meet it.

 

[Fatihah]

Well Fatihah,i have looked at these so called scientific miracles before but i cannot see a miracle there at all,the ones that have been purported to be miracles are very vague whereas if Pythagorous was in the Quran and his Theorum was recieved from devine sources i would be impressed,however "Mountains as pegs" does'nt really cut it.
From my point of view as a non believer i cannot see it as a universal challenge and does'nt prove anything other than the Quaraish were unable to meet it.

Response: Naturally, we would expect you to say this. When it comes to the scientific miracles, they are vague. When it comes to the linguistic arabic miracle, it was only for the arabs of that time. Yet when it comes to the miracle of Muhammad(pbuh) explained in post 72 of page 8, you yourself have admitted..... that it's impossible. Yet will insist on as a non-believer. What we can conclude from this is your own denial because that specific miracle is very much universal and can be applied to anyone of anytime.

 

[kai]

Response: I've explained this already in post 439 of page 44. As explained, it depends on what you take objection to. The qur'an is a miracle with many miracles. It's arabic is not the only miracle. The confusion seems to come from the question itself.

If you are answering the challenge and saying that you can produce something like the qur'an, of course it must be in arabic because the qur'an is in arabic. However, if you are asking for proof of the authenticity of the qur'an, I can prove it's authenticity from one or many of the miracles of the qur'an without using the miracle of the arabic. There are scientic miracles, prophecies, inspirational miracles, miracles of the qur'an's divine guidance and guardianship over it, miracles of the prophet himself not mentioned in the qur'an, etc.

So to answer your question as to whether it should be in arabic, it depends on why exactly you are answering the challenge and exactly what you are in doubt of concerning the qur'an.

My questions along with others are not as to why i may wish to answer the challenge but as to how?

 

[Fatihah]

My questions along with others are not as to why i may wish to answer the challenge but as to how?

Response: Then your question has no significant purpose other than to entertain you with an answer which is what is causing the confusion in explaining the challenge in the first place. What does the verse say. The verse says that "if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant..." So here we are with over 500 posts and neither you or anyone else has presented to us exactly what in the qur'an you have doubt in. So if you don't have doubt or won't share that doubt with us, how are we to explain the challenge? And if you have no doubt, than explaining the challenge is pointless. The explanation depends on what exactly are you doubting and the purpose of the challenge is to remove that doubt. So if you want a clear explanation, then present to us exactly what you are doubting. If you choose not to do so, then your inability to understand the challenge is of your own doing.

 

[TashaN]

well thats your postition clear TashaN thank you , and i think we should add that these experts must be able to read the Quran in its original form I.E Quranic Arabic otherwise they wont have a clue will they.

Of course.

Just one more thing which is Mestemias question really , where do you get this from? Quran? Hadith?

Sorry i forgot to address that one. This is not from the Quran nor from Hadith. The challenge was simple and common sense to the people at the time of Prophet Mohammed, to produce a Surah like it. You see, at that time when the Quran was revealed, Arabs were expert at the language. Many of them were great poets that some of their poems were hanged on the walls of the most sacred place to the Arabs even before Islam, the Ka'aba in Mekkah (In Saudi Arabia now).

The way poets would challenge each other was very simple and very common too, at that time, and i really wish if i know some books which talk about the stories of poets before Islam "in English" so we can use it here as a reference, but there are tons of them in Arabic. I'll tell you about some of the things i have read of that era.

Let's say two poets wanted to challenge each other, they would either say their poem and wait for the other to hear about it and reply back with another poem. Or they might ask someone they trust and know how a great poet he/she is and ask him/her to be the judge between them, or they might ask people to gather and both of them would say their poem and ask people to judge.

So the Quran came while those people had that deep understanding of what type of challenge it was. So, they were required to produce something similar to the Quran or better, but they expressed their amazement when they listened to the Quran because it was with unusual structure to them. It was a miracle to them, and they just couldn't be up to the challenge. The great poets at that time knew what a great embarrassment it would be for them to try to challenge such a great thing, so they acknowledged that no man can produce something like this, and it might be just, magic.

By the way, in Saudi Arabia were i studied, in high school, we study a subject in literature and part of this study would be dedicated to the pre-islamic poems, literature in general, sermons, etc.

Then when the years passed and that era have ended, people were wondering, if someone would bring a Surah like it, what would we expect from the challenger to achieve, and many Muslim scholars started to say the qualities of the Quran, and the 8 points i have posted is the working of one of the latter Muslim scholars who wasn't born at the time of Prophet Mohammed. He was born in Al-Andalus "Spain" if i'm not mistaken.

 

[McBell]

Of course.



Sorry i forgot to address that one. This is not from the Quran nor from Hadith. The challenge was simple and common sense to the people at the time of Prophet Mohammed, to produce a Surah like it. You see, at that time when the Quran was revealed, Arabs were expert at the language. Many of them were great poets that some of their poems were hanged on the walls of the most sacred place to the Arabs even before Islam, the Ka'aba in Mekkah (In Saudi Arabia now).

The way poets would challenge each other was very simple and very common too, at that time, and i really wish if i know some books which talk about the stories of poets before Islam "in English" so we can use it here as a reference, but there are tons of them in Arabic. I'll tell you about some of the things i have read of that era.

Let's say two poets wanted to challenge each other, they would either say their poem and wait for the other to hear about it and reply back with another poem. Or they might ask someone they trust and know how a great poet he/she is and ask him/her to be the judge between them, or they might ask people to gather and both of them would say their poem and ask people to judge.

So the Quran came while those people had that deep understanding of what type of challenge it was. So, they were required to produce something similar to the Quran or better, but they expressed their amazement when they listened to the Quran because it was with unusual structure to them. It was a miracle to them, and they just couldn't be up to the challenge. The great poets at that time knew what a great embarrassment it would be for them to try to challenge such a great thing, so they acknowledged that no man can produce something like this, and it might be just, magic.

By the way, in Saudi Arabia were i studied, in high school, we study a subject in literature and part of this study would be dedicated to the pre-islamic poems, literature in general, sermons, etc.

Then when the years passed and that era have ended, people were wondering, if someone would bring a Surah like it, what would we expect from the challenger to achieve, and many Muslim scholars started to say the qualities of the Quran, and the 8 points i have posted is the working of one of the latter Muslim scholars who wasn't born at the time of Prophet Mohammed. He was born in Al-Andalus "Spain" if i'm not mistaken.

ROTFLMAO

So it has boiled down to the "Common Sense" defense?
Where did Allah say that all these conditions you Muslims are arguing over apply?
Verses would be rather nice....

I mean, I keep hearing that the Koran is perfectly clear yet there is all manner of disagreement amongst the Muslims in this thread as to the exacting conditions of this alleged challenge.

So for clarities sake, how about you guys present the verses where Allah himself defines all these conditions you are arguing over?

I have been asking for these verses for quite a while now.
Yet even with all the clarity of the Koran, no one seems able to present them.

So I have to wonder why you Muslims feel the need to add conditions to a challenge issued by Allah himself....