The Challenge in the Qur'an

[England my lionheart]

Response: Naturally, we would expect you to say this. When it comes to the scientific miracles, they are vague. When it comes to the linguistic arabic miracle, it was only for the arabs of that time. Yet when it comes to the miracle of Muhammad(pbuh) explained in post 72 of page 8, you yourself have admitted..... that it's impossible. Yet will insist on as a non-believer. What we can conclude from this is your own denial because that specific miracle is very much universal and can be applied to anyone of anytime.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree,but i believe the original challenge made sense in the context it was given and seems pretty straight forward to me and again i am not saying that Islam isn't a universal religion i am saying the challenge clearly isn't.

 

[Fatihah]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree,but i believe the original challenge made sense in the context it was given and seems pretty straight forward to me and again i am not saying that Islam isn't a universal religion i am saying the challenge clearly isn't.

Response: And I say that the challenge is universal and the specific challenge of post 72 can be applied right now as we speak. The original challenge is to remove doubt and the miraculous challenge explained in post 72 does just that and proves that the qur'an is the unaltered truth and word of Allah(swt). However, as you say, we will agree to disagree.

 

[kai]

Response: Then your question has no significant purpose other than to entertain you with an answer which is what is causing the confusion in explaining the challenge in the first place. What does the verse say. The verse says that "if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant..." So here we are with over 500 posts and neither you or anyone else has presented to us exactly what in the qur'an you have doubt in. So if you don't have doubt or won't share that doubt with us, how are we to explain the challenge? And if you have no doubt, than explaining the challenge is pointless. The explanation depends on what exactly are you doubting and the purpose of the challenge is to remove that doubt. So if you want a clear explanation, then present to us exactly what you are doubting. If you choose not to do so, then your inability to understand the challenge is of your own doing.

I thought it was obvious that i was doubting the Challenge itself. sorry for the confusion.

 

[McBell]

Response: And I say that the challenge is universal and the specific challenge of post 72 can be applied right now as we speak. The original challenge is to remove doubt and the miraculous challenge explained in post 72 does just that and proves that the qur'an is the unaltered truth and word of Allah(swt). However, as you say, we will agree to disagree.

You can say it all you like.
Doesn't make it true though.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my questions in post #540?
I will present them here for your convenience:

So it has boiled down to the "Common Sense" defense?
Where did Allah say that all these conditions you Muslims are arguing over apply?
Verses would be rather nice....

I mean, I keep hearing that the Koran is perfectly clear yet there is all manner of disagreement amongst the Muslims in this thread as to the exacting conditions of this alleged challenge.

So for clarities sake, how about you guys present the verses where Allah himself defines all these conditions you are arguing over?

I have been asking for these verses for quite a while now.
Yet even with all the clarity of the Koran, no one seems able to present them.

So I have to wonder why you Muslims feel the need to add conditions to a challenge issued by Allah himself....​

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Mestemia]You can say it all you like.
Doesn't make it true though.(End Quote)

Response: Correct. What makes it true is the fact that it's true and you can't prove otherwise.

(Quote Mestemia)
Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my questions in post #540?
I will present them here for your convenience:

So it has boiled down to the "Common Sense" defense?
Where did Allah say that all these conditions you Muslims are arguing over apply?
Verses would be rather nice....

I mean, I keep hearing that the Koran is perfectly clear yet there is all manner of disagreement amongst the Muslims in this thread as to the exacting conditions of this alleged challenge.

So for clarities sake, how about you guys present the verses where Allah himself defines all these conditions you are arguing over?

I have been asking for these verses for quite a while now.
Yet even with all the clarity of the Koran, no one seems able to present them.

So I have to wonder why you Muslims feel the need to add conditions to a challenge issued by Allah himself....​

(End Quote)

Response: The challenge is self-explanatory. Conditions are not being added. All of this has been explained in post 439 of page 44.

 

[TashaN]

ROTFLMAO

So it has boiled down to the "Common Sense" defense?
Where did Allah say that all these conditions you Muslims are arguing over apply?
Verses would be rather nice....

I mean, I keep hearing that the Koran is perfectly clear yet there is all manner of disagreement amongst the Muslims in this thread as to the exacting conditions of this alleged challenge.

So for clarities sake, how about you guys present the verses where Allah himself defines all these conditions you are arguing over?

I have been asking for these verses for quite a while now.
Yet even with all the clarity of the Koran, no one seems able to present them.

So I have to wonder why you Muslims feel the need to add conditions to a challenge issued by Allah himself....

The challenge is simple. Go and bring a Surah like it. That's what Allah said.

All what you have to do is to look at the verses of the Quran, study them, and try to bring a similar thing to it, and then give it to some experts in the Quran, language, litreature to judge whether they are similar or not.

People here, being unfamiliar with the Quran--including you--didn't know how to bring something similar to it, so we sacrificed some of our time and effort in order to explain to you and others some of the qualities of the Quran. If you didn't like them, just follow the simple challenge Allah has put and forget about ALL what Muslims here said. Bring a Surah like it! simple and clear, now go a head.

A message to the Muslims here, if someone ever asked you about the challenge, just point to that verse where Allah says bring a Surah like it and leave it up to them to figure it out by going to some experts to help them with understanding the text and the possibilities of coming up with something similar. So simple, don't waste your time if the one asking is like the person i'm responding to right now in this post.

 

[YmirGF]

A message to the Muslims here, if someone ever asked you about the challenge, just point to that verse where Allah says bring a Surah like it and leave it up to them to figure it out by going to some experts to help them with understanding the text and the possibilities of coming up with something similar. So simple, don't waste your time if the one asking is like the person i'm responding to right now in this post.

I really have not seen such unmitigated arrogance displayed by you before, TashaN -- and that is saying a lot.

So, in essence your answer is, "This is the answer. Deal with it, unworthy infidel dog."

Again I ask, "Why would anyone, in their right mind, accept the challenge?"
There isn't the slightest possibility that whatever they wrote would be accepted, thus the challenge is rigged and cannot be met.
The so-called "challenge" is therefore invalid.

 

[TashaN]

I really have not seen such unmitigated arrogance displayed by you before, TashaN -- and that is saying a lot.

So, in essence your answer is, "This is the answer. Deal with it, unworthy infidel dog."

What a shame, Paul! I know you are better than this, despite our differences. I have no further comment to what you just said.

Again I ask, "Why would anyone, in their right mind, accept the challenge?"
There isn't the slightest possibility that whatever they wrote would be accepted, thus the challenge is rigged and cannot be met.
The so-called "challenge" is therefore invalid.

It can be met. Just make a Surah like it, go to a on-Muslim experts in Quran, languages, literature, etc, then come here with their testimonials stating that Mr. Paul (YOU) have met the challenge and could produce a fine work similar to that one in the Quran, so simple, then come here and show us!

I will not address your childish posts again.

Peace be upon you.

 

[YmirGF]

It can be met. Just make a Surah like it, go to a on-Muslim experts in Quran, languages, literature, etc, then come here with their testimonials stating that Mr. Paul (YOU) have met the challenge and could produce a fine work similar to that one in the Quran, so simple, then come here and show us!

Rubbish. You make this sound SO easy. It is not possible - therefore the so-called challenge is a fraud.

I will not address your childish posts again.

Thank god for small mercies, eh! I will look forward to your silence.

 

[kai]

I dont think there is any point going on is there? we have come full circle. produce a surah like it.

thats as good as it gets folks. as for me personally i think God would be capable according to his attributes of making a book that's recognisable by Arabs ,Englishmen, and Eskimos alike without having "to ask the experts" now there's a miracle huh.

 

[England my lionheart]

Indeed,we have come full circle again,i'm not sure how many times altogether but too many.
Its a shame really but i already knew that the challenge was a damp squib and not what it was touted to be but i guess we should look at it this way,if Muslims don't know what the challenge is what chance have we got.

 

[YmirGF]

Perhaps my last post on this subject.

I dont think there is any point going on is there? we have come full circle. produce a surah like it.

thats as good as it gets folks. as for me personally i think God would be capable according to his attributes of making a book that's recognisable by Arabs ,Englishmen, and Eskimos alike without having "to ask the experts" now there's a miracle huh.

Well, I have been around this argument a few times now and this is how it always ends. On Islam.com the Muslims were nowhere near as polite or understanding in regards to questions, but the result (minus the imaginative expletives) was the same.

"Shut up! Produce a sura like it!"

I think this is one aspect of Islam that bothers me. There are some questions you are not supposed to ask or talk about. I have never had that reaction from any other religious group - regardless of what they thought about the question. Most will try to answer you and not get all hissy over it, lol... or demand people stop talking about it.

Indeed,we have come full circle again,i'm not sure how many times altogether but too many.
Its a shame really but i already knew that the challenge was a damp squib and not what it was touted to be but i guess we should look at it this way,if Muslims don't know what the challenge is what chance have we got.

Yes, I knew it was a sham too, but it IS fascinating how Muslims justify the so-called challenge, knowing full well that the challenge is impossible. It is because no one CAN meet the challenge that it cannot be seriously considered as a challenge. One can only wonder about Fatihah's subterfuge when he repeatedly demands people to take the challenge.

I just wanted to take up some bandwidth to show how shallow Muslim's thinking is on this topic and for the most part, I think they lived up to my expectations.

 

[England my lionheart]

Ymir,this is what i've come to expect of them,every thread i have seen from "scientific miracles in the Quran" to "stoning is a cutural thing" and my personal favourite "Mountains are pegs" and as you say,they always end the same way.

 

[Fatihah]

Indeed,we have come full circle again,i'm not sure how many times altogether but too many.
Its a shame really but i already knew that the challenge was a damp squib and not what it was touted to be but i guess we should look at it this way,if Muslims don't know what the challenge is what chance have we got.

Response: Yet the challenge goes unanswered once again. Even more than just unanswered, but not even attempted to begin with. Yes, one can clearly see that you've demonstrated a consistant denial of the truth of the qur'an's authenticity throughout.

 

[Fatihah]

Perhaps my last post on this subject.

Well, I have been around this argument a few times now and this is how it always ends. On Islam.com the Muslims were nowhere near as polite or understanding in regards to questions, but the result (minus the imaginative expletives) was the same.

"Shut up! Produce a sura like it!"

I think this is one aspect of Islam that bothers me. There are some questions you are not supposed to ask or talk about. I have never had that reaction from any other religious group - regardless of what they thought about the question. Most will try to answer you and not get all hissy over it, lol... or demand people stop talking about it.



Yes, I knew it was a sham too, but it IS fascinating how Muslims justify the so-called challenge, knowing full well that the challenge is impossible. It is because no one CAN meet the challenge that it cannot be seriously considered as a challenge. One can only wonder about Fatihah's subterfuge when he repeatedly demands people to take the challenge.

I just wanted to take up some bandwidth to show how shallow Muslim's thinking is on this topic and for the most part, I think they lived up to my expectations.

Response: Your own words:
"Yes, I knew it was a sham too, but it IS fascinating how Muslims justify the so-called challenge, knowing full well that the challenge is impossible. It is because no one CAN meet the challenge that it cannot be seriously considered as a challenge."

Even you yourself have to admit that the challenge is impossible, which is all the satisfaction we muslims need to hear and further confirmation of your own denial. Because if it's impossible for you and anyone else but Muhammad (pbuh), then like it or not, you yourself have just confirmed that Muhammad (pbuh) is a true prophet of Allah and the qur'an is the true, unaltered word of Allah (swt). Subhan'Allah.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Yet the challenge goes unanswered once again. Even more than just unanswered, but not even attempted to begin with. Yes, one can clearly see that you've demonstrated a consistant denial of the truth of the qur'an's authenticity throughout.

Ha,whats this an inquisition,its true for you isn't that enough.

 

[McBell]

Response: Correct. What makes it true is the fact that it's true and you can't prove otherwise.

Right back to this nonsensical BS?
I have decided that this is likely me very last post in response your babble.

Response: The challenge is self-explanatory. Conditions are not being added. All of this has been explained in post 439 of page 44.

Again with flat out lies and double speak.
Yep, I am definately done with your nonsensical babblings and flat out lies.

The challenge is simple. Go and bring a Surah like it. That's what Allah said.

What?
No verses?
Even after being flat out asked for.....?

People here, being unfamiliar with the Quran--including you--didn't know how to bring something similar to it, so we sacrificed some of our time and effort in order to explain to you and others some of the qualities of the Quran. If you didn't like them, just follow the simple challenge Allah has put and forget about ALL what Muslims here said. Bring a Surah like it! simple and clear, now go a head.

ROTFLMAO
From the "common sense" defense to the self imposed martyr....
You truly are on a roll.

A message to the Muslims here, if someone ever asked you about the challenge, just point to that verse where Allah says bring a Surah like it and leave it up to them to figure it out by going to some experts to help them with understanding the text and the possibilities of coming up with something similar. So simple, don't waste your time if the one asking is like the person i'm responding to right now in this post.

Yes, you Muslims must continue to make as general as possible comments and answers (Unless you want to be inconsistent and contradict yourself every other post like Fatihah) because when asked the really tough questions (you know, like who is to judge it, what authority do they have to judge it, etc.) you must go out of your way to make yourself look as ignorant and retarded as possible.

This thread is a prime example.

 

[TashaN]

I dont think there is any point going on is there? we have come full circle. produce a surah like it.

thats as good as it gets folks. as for me personally i think God would be capable according to his attributes of making a book that's recognisable by Arabs ,Englishmen, and Eskimos alike without having "to ask the experts" now there's a miracle huh.

It's recognizable by all, kai, but in order to meet this "specific challenge", it has to be from its own nature. You forgot about all the other great things in the Quran and its universal message and only picked this challenge. The Quran is full of challenges and i can show you tons of them but this was the most famous one for its deep significance to the beginning of Islam, and the message held by Mohammed to his brethren, before spreading the message to the globe.

Regarding asking experts, you have to take it within context. What i meant was, those experts can be the judge to decide whether one was up to the challenge with trying to bring a Surah like it or not. I didn't suggest that those experts will show you how to read the Quran. Anyone can read the Quran today because it's translated now to almost all known languages.

 

[Fatihah]

Right back to this nonsensical BS?
I have decided that this is likely me very last post in response your babble.


Again with flat out lies and double speak.
Yep, I am definately done with your nonsensical babblings and flat out lies.




What?
No verses?
Even after being flat out asked for.....?


ROTFLMAO
From the "common sense" defense to the self imposed martyr....
You truly are on a roll.


Yes, you Muslims must continue to make as general as possible comments and answers (Unless you want to be inconsistent and contradict yourself every other post like Fatihah) because when asked the really tough questions (you know, like who is to judge it, what authority do they have to judge it, etc.) you must go out of your way to make yourself look as ignorant and retarded as possible.

This thread is a prime example.

Response: Likewise.

 

[TashaN]

What?
No verses?
Even after being flat out asked for.....?

[23] And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. (Quran 2:23)

ROTFLMAO
From the "common sense" defense to the self imposed martyr....
You truly are on a roll.

:sarcastic

Yes, you Muslims must continue to make as general as possible comments and answers (Unless you want to be inconsistent and contradict yourself every other post like Fatihah) because when asked the really tough questions (you know, like who is to judge it, what authority do they have to judge it, etc.) you must go out of your way to make yourself look as ignorant and retarded as possible.

This thread is a prime example.

Thank to God, Muslims today are all over the world. That's why it's truly naive to think we all think the same way. This is a clear proof that Islam encourage the individuals to think for themselves, and the diversity you have seen here is something positive not something negative as you think. I can't say who is right amongst us and who is wrong, because we all have different understanding and we all have generated our own opinion regarding this matter. Islam doesn't force us to think on the same way. We all have our own views.

As i said before, i guess most of the Muslims if not all, in RF, are just normal simple Muslims. They might be your neighbor, the next shop owner you pass by, a person you meet on the bus or a train, a colleague of yours, etc. I don't know why people assume we know everything. Even scholars themselves don't know it ALL. Allah almighty is the one who knows everything. We just shared here of what we know on this subject, and i myself, have done my own searching and learnt alot through this thread.

I really hope you will stop your name calling habit, it will damage your credibility and show your inability to have a healthy intellectual dialogue.

Insulting others is a weakness and disadvntage. Heck, some of the Muslims here have the right to insult some people here but they didn't. All of them were really cool and yet, the strangest thing ever is that the attacker is the one who is insulting lol.

Calm down man, take a deep breath, and wipe out your tears, don't lose it now please.