The Challenge in the Qur'an

[Fatihah]

oh i dont think so! maybe you should ask for guidence on this one in the Muslim section

Response: No need. The qur'an is clear enough.

 

[kai]

Response: No need. The qur'an is clear enough.

OK , which translation do you use by the way?

 

[Fatihah]

i think your wrong Fatihah! the language has everything to do with the essence of the Quran, the language is not the prophets its gods. or so i am told.



this might be of interest:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/83306-arabic-language.html

Response: And how exactly does the language have everything to do with the essence of the qur'an?

 

[Fatihah]

OK , which translation do you use by the way?

Response: I use several. However, my notes of the qur'an happen to be in the translation of Malik Ghulam Farid. So most of the translations I present are from there.

 

[kai]

Response: And how exactly does the language have everything to do with the essence of the qur'an?

because Allah gave it to the Angel who gave it to the prophet word for word in Arabic. Fatihah you must know translations dont cut it .

 

[kai]

Response: I use several. However, my notes of the qur'an happen to be in the translation of Malik Ghulam Farid. So most of the translations I present are from there.

Ok i have the Koran translated by J. M. Rodwell in English.

 

[Fatihah]

because Allah gave it to the Angel who gave it to the prophet word for word in Arabic. Fatihah you must know translations dont cut it .

Response: That doesn't answer to what effect the arabic language has to the essence of the qur'an. And yes, a translation is perfectly fine. The simple fact that the majority of the muslims in the world are not only not fluent in arabic but are not even arabs is proof enough.

 

[Fatihah]

Ok i have the Koran translated by J. M. Rodwell in English.

Response: O.K.

 

[kai]

Response: That doesn't answer to what effect the arabic language has to the essence of the qur'an. And yes, a translation is perfectly fine. The simple fact that the majority of the muslims in the world are not only not fluent in arabic but are not even arabs is proof enough.

OK i really shouldn't be getting into this as i am not a Muslim but everything i have learned about Islam tells me different. i will bow out Fatihah and let Muslims answer your posts if they so wish. I am a little amazed at your posts though i must admit.

 

[England my lionheart]

I agree,i wish i had £10 for every time i've been told that to understand the Quran properly you must understand Arabic.

 

[Sajdah]

Most of this post is part of a post i have directed at YmirGF, but he couldn't reply, i don't know why ...

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...436-modern-mystics-vision-god.html#post874650

To YmirGF, Mestemia, Kai, and others ...

You already know the challenge, but you are asking why does it supposed to be in Arabic? Is it true that Islam was meant form Arabs only because it was in Arabic?

Let's see ...

[105] Thus do We explain the Signs by various (symbols) that they may say, "Thou hast learnt this (from somebody)," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know. (Quran 6:103)

Now, imagine if Prophet Mohammed came to people speaking in Hebrew, Greek, and many other languages, anybody would have said that Mohammed simply translated the previous scriptures into Arabic, and added to it some stuff from here and there and him being an illiterate man would have no purpose then at all.

Prophet Mohammed was an illiterate man. He knew nothing of other languages. He couldn't even write or read in Arabic. This was the ULTIMATE proof that Prophet Mohammed couldn't have brought this from somewhere else other than Allah.

Also, note that it was in Arabic, which means that, even if someone has translated for him some stuff from the previous scripture, the Quran was come "for certain" in a poor manner which can easily be refuted by the Arab expert at that time. It was simply too perfect and too good to be true for them. It was so original.

That's why Allah said ....

[103] We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. (Quran 16:103)

If he have been taught this by others, from where?

Some said at that time it was from the Jews and Christians at that time, then here God refuted that by telling them this is the clear word of God in pure fluent Arabic, accepted to be a miracle in its language which no one in that time could challenge even God asked them to produce one verse like it. ONLY ONE Surah and all this fuss could fall down apart and Mohammed would fail "God forbid". Prophet Mohammed can't just pick some Hebrew or Greek tongue and convert all that into PERFECT Arabic knowledge within seconds or minutes !!!

Anyway, assume what they assume, so here is the challenge:

[23] And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. (Quran 2:23)

Read here with me please ...

Arabic language in general and Arabic poetry in particular were, and still are, of a central importance to Arabs. Philip Hitti describes Arabs' fascination by poetry by saying "No people in the world manifest such enthusiastic admiration for literary expression and are so moved by the word, spoken or written, as the Arabs. Modern audiences in Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo can be stirred to the highest degree by the recital of poems, only vaguely comprehended, and by the delivery of orations in the classical tongue, though it be only partially understood. The rhythm, the rhyme, the music, produce on them the effect of what they call "lawful magic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_...Islamic_poetry

You see, God challenged them in the best of the best of what they used to be proud of, and they fail to produce only ONE SINGLE SURAH. They could just see the shortest surah in the Quran and give it a shot. But all the arabs acknowledged the magic of the Quran, but there is no whoo-poo magic in here, Its a pure Arabic language.

After they failed to stand in front of this challenge, they gave up and say ...

[4] So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! And the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies! (Quran 38:4)

See !!!

Remember when Moses have a stick, parted the sea, etc. Why is that?

Because at that time, the people used to be so good in magic, and God showed them clearly that what Moses have got is not a magic, and if they think its, then they can give it a shot.

[113] So there came the sorcerers to Fir'aun: they said, "Of course we shall have a (suitable) reward if we win!"


[114] He said: "Yea, (and more), for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."

[115] They said: "O Musa! wilt thou throw (first), or shall we have the (first) throw?"

[116] Said Musa: "Throw ye (first)." So when they threw, they bewitched the eyes of the people, and struck terror into them: for they showed a great (feat of) magic.

[117] We put it into Musa's mind by inspiration: "Throw (now) thy rod": and behold! it swallows up straightway all the falsehoods which they fake!

[118] Thus truth was confirmed. And all that they did was made of no effect.

[119] So the (great ones) were vanquished there and then, and were made to look small.

[120] But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.

[121] Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,.

[122] "The Lord of Musa and Harun." (Quran 7:113-122)

He (Allah) sent down a pure arabic word of His to the people who were so proud of their poetry and amazing tongue, and they failed to be up to the challenge.

He sent Moses with clear miracles for people who used to be the greatest of the greatest in magic, and they failed to be up to the challenge.

Do you want other examples of the continuous failure of mere arrogant human beings when they sink in denial and attempt to challenge the signs of Allah, do you?

Paul, most of the time i find myself so hopeless in front of the Quran. Its way too powerful for me to grasp or handle entirely, and i feel so tiny and ignorant when i try to explain one verse or two. What is in the Quran is just too much, and i feel so bad that i can only grasp just a little out of it. That's why, I'm learning everyday something new about the Quran, and i even find a new wisdom in verses i have been reading since ages when i really put some effort into communicating with God through his very own words, even if it was a mere assumption that its the word of God, but the Quran is just too huge to be ignored, i believe so.

So, we conclude that:

1- The Quran was in Arabic because if it wasn't, people would have easily said that Mohammed have brought this from the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah, Injil, etc).

2- Islam is not only for Arabs, but knowing some Arabic is essential in order to practice the rituals. I see people from other religions who would memorize certain words and say it during their rituals but they don't understand what it means and even if they understood the literal meaning, they wouldn't know the root of this word and how significance it's.

3- The challenge supposed to be in Arabic because it's absolutely no easy task to compare a very rich language like Arabic with a modern simple language like English for instance. This is common sense people, so go pick something else to complain about.

-------------------------------------------​

Now, let's see how to be up to the challenge. the "Surah like it" as Ibn Hayan say have to be:

1- Like it, in its perfect structure, and the way it's nicely put, and the unique way in telling it, and it's fascinating and strange way, and to be short and perfect in meaning, the way Quran is.

2- Like it, in the way it tells us about the past, and the future.

3- Like it, because it has to contain the unique way of telling about the reward and punishment, wisdom, proverbs, examples, stories, etc.

4- Like it, in its truth, and it supposed to be unable to be changed or altered.

5- Like it, to be in Arabic, just like the Quran, from its own nature.

6- Like it, in a way that you always feel you are reading something new, you always have that feeling that you get a new meaning every time you read the same exact verse, the way Quran is.

7- Like it, in a way that those who listen to it never feel bored when they do so even if they listened to it all over and over and over again, and in way that its miracles never end, and its amazing signs never vanish with time.

8- Like it, in its continuous verses, and miracles.

I can go on if you want. Before coming here aimlessly and foolishly trying to talk about the Quran, you better go and read what experts say about it.

Of course, anybody can read the Quran, but can everybody know that the Quran contains all of the above? of course not. Experts in language, literature, religions, voices, etc, have the ability to evaluate such a masterpiece.

I didn't attempt to give a real reply before because until now i didn't see a real challenge. I saw nothing in most of the posts in this thread except arrogance, ignorance, and denial, but all of this need to stop now.

Very well said brother Tashan

(Translation might be, "like talking to a corse")...لقد أسمعت لو ناديت حياً, ولكن لا حياة لمن تنادى ​

 

[Fatihah]

I agree,i wish i had £10 for every time i've been told that to understand the Quran properly you must understand Arabic.

Response: You must understand the arabic of the qur'an, not all arabic. There's a difference.

 

[Peace]

God doesn't hear your prayers unless they are in Arabic

You are confusing things here Kai. You should know that prayers we Muslims talk about is not the word prayer that used by non-muslims. When we say prayers we are talking about the five daily prayers that is in form of standing and reciting verses from the Quran and kneeling, prostrating while praising God...
Have you ever seen Muslims praying? If not I can post some pictures in order to differentiate between prayers and supplication.
What non-muslims call prayer, we call it du'a which means supplication, invocation. Supplications and invocation can be done in any other language even during the five daily prayers. Therefore, Allah hears all supplication that are done in Arabic or any other language.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: You must understand the arabic of the qur'an, not all arabic. There's a difference.

Yes i suspect there is because of the poetry and prose in the Quran and this is what you cannot achieve in English.

 

[Peace]

He (Allah) sent down a pure arabic word of His to the people who were so proud of their poetry and amazing tongue, and they failed to be up to the challenge.

He sent Moses with clear miracles for people who used to be the greatest of the greatest in magic, and they failed to be up to the challenge.

Do you want other examples of the continuous failure of mere arrogant human beings when they sink in denial and attempt to challenge the signs of Allah, do you?

Paul, most of the time i find myself so hopeless in front of the Quran. Its way too powerful for me to grasp or handle entirely, and i feel so tiny and ignorant when i try to explain one verse or two. What is in the Quran is just too much, and i feel so bad that i can only grasp just a little out of it. That's why, I'm learning everyday something new about the Quran, and i even find a new wisdom in verses i have been reading since ages when i really put some effort into communicating with God through his very own words, even if it was a mere assumption that its the word of God, but the Quran is just too huge to be ignored, i believe so.

So, we conclude that:

1- The Quran was in Arabic because if it wasn't, people would have easily said that Mohammed have brought this from the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah, Injil, etc).

2- Islam is not only for Arabs, but knowing some Arabic is essential in order to practice the rituals. I see people from other religions who would memorize certain words and say it during their rituals but they don't understand what it means and even if they understood the literal meaning, they wouldn't know the root of this word and how significance it's.

3- The challenge supposed to be in Arabic because it's absolutely no easy task to compare a very rich language like Arabic with a modern simple language like English for instance. This is common sense people, so go pick something else to complain about.

-------------------------------------------​

Now, let's see how to be up to the challenge. the "Surah like it" as Ibn Hayan say have to be:

1- Like it, in its perfect structure, and the way it's nicely put, and the unique way in telling it, and it's fascinating and strange way, and to be short and perfect in meaning, the way Quran is.

2- Like it, in the way it tells us about the past, and the future.

3- Like it, because it has to contain the unique way of telling about the reward and punishment, wisdom, proverbs, examples, stories, etc.

4- Like it, in its truth, and it supposed to be unable to be changed or altered.

5- Like it, to be in Arabic, just like the Quran, from its own nature.

6- Like it, in a way that you always feel you are reading something new, you always have that feeling that you get a new meaning every time you read the same exact verse, the way Quran is.

7- Like it, in a way that those who listen to it never feel bored when they do so even if they listened to it all over and over and over again, and in way that its miracles never end, and its amazing signs never vanish with time.

8- Like it, in its continuous verses, and miracles.

I can go on if you want. Before coming here aimlessly and foolishly trying to talk about the Quran, you better go and read what experts say about it.

Of course, anybody can read the Quran, but can everybody know that the Quran contains all of the above? of course not. Experts in language, literature, religions, voices, etc, have the ability to evaluate such a masterpiece.

I didn't attempt to give a real reply before because until now i didn't see a real challenge. I saw nothing in most of the posts in this thread except arrogance, ignorance, and denial, but all of this need to stop now.

May our dear Allah bless you brother for this great post! Well written and said masha'Allah
Jazaka Allah khayran!!

 

[YmirGF]

May our dear Allah bless you brother for this great post! Well written and said masha'Allah
Jazaka Allah khayran!!

I guess we are not supposed to ask difficult questions. I forget that about Islam sometimes.

 

[England my lionheart]

I guess we are not supposed to ask difficult questions. I forget that about Islam sometimes.

No your not supposed to ask any questions,i get the feeling that they are pre programmed to repeat an answer that does'nt address the question being asked

 

[Ghostaka]

Alhamdullilah.

I guess we are not supposed to ask difficult questions. I forget that about Islam sometimes.

No your not supposed to ask any questions,i get the feeling that they are pre programmed to repeat an answer that does'nt address the question being asked

Uh-oh here comes the denial again .

Stop posting and read brother TashaN's explanation. I think it clears up a lot of confusion. I've seen this many a time when a good comment from our Muslim brothers and sisters that is just ignored even if it makes good sense to you. Don't digress here people! I hope my comment isn't replied to just to add to the pages of the thread.

p.s. don't reply!

Peace be upon you.

 

[England my lionheart]

where is it written in the Quran

 

[McBell]

Alhamdullilah.



Uh-oh here comes the denial again .

Stop posting and read brother TashaN's explanation. I think it clears up a lot of confusion. I've seen this many a time when a good comment from our Muslim brothers and sisters that is just ignored even if it makes good sense to you. Don't digress here people! I hope my comment isn't replied to just to add to the pages of the thread.

p.s. don't reply!

Peace be upon you.

Kettle, meet pot.

Though I do have to give credit where credit is due.
You guys sure are consistent with your inconsistencies.