The Challenge in the Qur'an

[McBell]

I dont think its impossible ! I have already listed many religious documents which have the same effect on people, i do however think its impossible if Muslims judge it.

The way this alleged challenge is present and "explained " in this thread, it is nothing more than a 1400 year old Kent Hovind Challenge.

Although Kent Hovind has much more clearly defined/explained the conditions for his challenge.

 

[kai]

The way this alleged challenge is present and "explained " in this thread, it is nothing more than a 1400 year old Kent Hovind Challenge.

Although Kent Hovind has much more clearly defined/explained the conditions for his challenge.

I think its quite impossible for Muslims to even comprehend something equalling the Quran. I cant see you being a Muslim if you did.

 

[Fatihah]

I dont think its impossible ! I have already listed many religious documents which have the same effect on people, i do however think its impossible if Muslims judge it.

Response: If it's not impossible, then prove that the challenge in post 72 of page 8 is possible.

 

[kai]

Response: If it's not impossible, then prove that the challenge in post 72 of page 8 is possible.

If you have been following the thread i agree with TashaN that it has to be in Arabic and sadly i dont know Arabic.so i am out of your universal challenge as i see it.

 

[Fatihah]

If you have been following the thread i agree with TashaN that it has to be in Arabic and sadly i dont know Arabic.so i am out of your universal challenge as i see it.

Response: Than you have no legitimate reason to claim it to be possible.

 

[kai]

Now i know this could open up a whole new can of worms and i am very dubious about posting in this thread but. I have always wondered if it was true then it "the Challenge " was answered during the revelation and abrogated by Allah.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/83336-satanic-verses-who-real-culprits-behind.html


now forgive me if its bollocks .

 

[kai]

Response: Than you have no legitimate reason to claim it to be possible.

why not?

 

[England my lionheart]

I think its worth asking from which Quran we take the challenge from,do we take it from the original one or Uthmans revised addition,what we know for sure is that there were Quranic variants and its a shame that Utman had the others burnt.
Also worth noting is the challenge when issued was to bring a book like it,then a chapter,then 3 lines and then one line,because the Quran isn't in any kind of chronological order makes it a little more confusing.

 

[Fatihah]

why not?

Response: Because you have no proof that it is possible. To claim something is possible without proof is not a legitimate reason to say something is possible. Without proof, you can not know if something is possible.

 

[Zindagee Rahmaan]

Response: Because you have no proof that it is possible. To claim something is possible without proof is not a legitimate reason to say something is possible. Without proof, you can not know if something is possible.

Same situation once I faced, I remembered...
Actually heart is sealed.

 

[Fatihah]

I think its worth asking from which Quran we take the challenge from,do we take it from the original one or Uthmans revised addition,what we know for sure is that there were Quranic variants and its a shame that Utman had the others burnt.
Also worth noting is the challenge when issued was to bring a book like it,then a chapter,then 3 lines and then one line,because the Quran isn't in any kind of chronological order makes it a little more confusing.

Response: There is only qur'an. The qur'an of Uthman's is no different. As for the other questions, bring something like it in any of those forms.

 

[kai]

Response: Because you have no proof that it is possible. To claim something is possible without proof is not a legitimate reason to say something is possible. Without proof, you can not know if something is possible.

its a matter of faith

 

[Fatihah]

Same situation once I faced, I remembered...
Actually heart is sealed.

Response: I agree completely, dear sister.

 

[kai]

Response: I agree completely, dear sister.

on the contrary i am wide open , wide open to learn and make judgements based on what i see and hear. you say with absolute conviction that its impossible now thats a closed mind.

 

[Fatihah]

its a matter of faith

Response: Indeed. Your honesty is much appreciated. It is your faith or belief that the challenge is possible, not actual proof. And you are very much entitled to your faith, whether we agree or disagree.

 

[kai]

Response: Indeed. Your honesty is much appreciated. It is your faith or belief that the challenge is possible, not actual proof. And you are very much entitled to your faith, whether we agree or disagree.

well actually at the moment i am not ruling it out. but my faith is in that i dont beleive it impossible more than i beleive it possible. If you get what i mean Lol

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: There is only qur'an. The qur'an of Uthman's is no different. As for the other questions, bring something like it in any of those forms.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61
Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."
​

So seven different dialects maybe or just different

The next Ahadith shows that there were differences that were enough to fight for.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:


Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) ..." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. ..."

I wonder why there were different recitations,could it be that they were,well different.


​

 

[Fatihah]

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61
Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."
​

So seven different dialects maybe or just different

The next Ahadith shows that there were differences that were enough to fight for.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:


Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) ..." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. ..."

I wonder why there were different recitations,could it be that they were,well different.


​

Response: Dear England, you seem to have asked your question and answered it at the same time without even noticing. The first hadith which you've mentioned is the answer. The prophet Muhammad(pbuh) revealed the qur'an in 7 different ahruf (modes of recitation). The reason for this is because of the accent of the people of the different arab tribes. Certain words were harder on their tongue than others. For example, I'm sure you know the song:
"You say tomato (ta-may-toe) I say tomato (ta-maa-toe)... So the prophet revealed the qur'an in 7 different modes of recitation for the benefit of those who had a problem with different words. The confliction between the muslims as to the difference of the qur'an was due to this. Some did not know of the different recitations, as shown in the first hadith you quoted. Even muslims of today don't know that there are 10 different qirats of reciting the qur'an. For a long time, I myself didn't know.
So some person may say , Allah, or, Alaah, Muhammad, or Mohammed, Salaat, or salah, adthan, or azhan, etc. It's the same qur'an in different dialects or modes of recitation.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: It warms my heart even more knowing that I have never met a non-muslim whom after I presented my argument, they either agreed or reverted themselves. So without question, the view of islam by most non-muslims on any website is due to their own pride and denial. Especially when the person themselves admit that the challenge is impossible, yet they don't want to admit the truth of islam and that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt). So clear and so obvious as to why.

What you fail to grasp is that it is clearly impossible because Muslims would have to judge the results. There is no possibility that they would not be biased in favor of the Qur'an and that is why the challenge is simply a ruse or a fraud.

To prove my point, simply look at how you have jumped on my statement that the challenge is impossible. It is impossible because it would be up the Muslims, contrary to what TashaN suggested, to render their opinion. If it was a fair competition with a clear group of unbiased judges then there is a slim chance that a challenger might succeed, however that unbiased group of judges does not exist rendering the challenge impossible.

I simply don't understand HOW you can imagine, in your wildest dreams, that that reality adds to the legitimacy of the Islamic Trinity.

 

[England my lionheart]

Also worth noting is

Allah says, [And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them…] (Ibrahim: 4)
He also says, [Lo! We have revealed it, a Lecture in Arabic, that ye may understand.] (Yusuf: 2)
Qistas (17:35), derived from the Greek language.
Sijjil (15: 74), derived from the Persian language.
Ghassaq (78: 25), derived from the Turkish language.
At-Tur (2:63), derived from the Syriac language.
Al-Kifl (57: 28), derived from the Abyssinian language.

A small thing really,the odd foreign word thrown in although it is said that there are over 100 foreign words and phrases in the Quran.