The Death Penalty

[Terrywoodenpic]

Since this is in the religious debates section, I figure I ought to at least offer this to the thread.

Genesis 9:6

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.

Disagree with it if you will... but it's there.

Yes I do disagree with that. As do most Europeans.

Things printed in the scriptures have a fair chance of being wrong... this is one of those occasions.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Hey Linwood, I'm curious, was there anything specific that changed your mind?

It's best to err in favor of allowing the accused to live as the opportunities for error are just catastrophic and irreversible. It's in society's best interest to protect innocent people from being killed by their government.

It sounds terrible... but think of it as collateral damage. When our military bombs a building that is a legitimate military target, sometimes innocent people die. It sucks, but it's not enough to stop the strike from being necessary.

Similarly, there are certain individuals who have forfeited their right to live by committing heinous crimes... murders that might include rape, mutilation, torture, etc... and yes, the court system should be reformed to prevent innocent people from being sentenced... but that should have no impact on the penalties imposed on those who are found guilty.

The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. In fact, states without capital punishment have lower murder rates.

Michigan and Alaska... both states with no death penalty, typically have higher and more consistent murder rates than Texas and California, most notorious death penalty states, both of which show a general reduction in the murder rate over the course of time.

The death penalty could be an effective deterrent if it were taken more seriously, inflicted more consistently and efficiently. People figure they won't get caught... and if they do get caught, there's no way they're getting death, and if they do, it'll be after at least 20 years anyway. It is not seen as a consequence for murder because in general, it hasn't been a consequence for murderer.

 

[Enoch07]

The death penalty could be an effective deterrent if it were taken more seriously, inflicted more consistently and efficiently. People figure they won't get caught... and if they do get caught, there's no way they're getting death, and if they do, it'll be after at least 20 years anyway. It is not seen as a consequence for murder because in general, it hasn't been a consequence for murderer.

I fully support the death penalty and agree with this. Prison is a vacation home for criminals nowadays. If the death penalty was enforced more for murderers and opened up for rapist and child molesters. I guarantee you would see a drop in the rate of all 3 of these crimes. It would be worth the rare wrongful conviction ending in execution, to save the great number of innocent lives who fall victim to these monsters who have repeat offenses once released.

Info from several different sites report that about 30%-40% of criminals repeat the same crimes after released, and about 50%-55% go on to commit new crimes. That means we are looking at only 5%-20% come out of prison reformed and live crime free lives. That is not taken into account how many of them commit crimes, but do not get caught.......So the actual % of truly reformed criminals is lower than stated. Prison is not as an effective deterrent as most would think.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Prison is not as an effective deterrent as most would think.

Nor is the death penalty as effective of a deterrent as you seem to think.

 

[Nepenthe]

It sounds terrible... but think of it as collateral damage. When our military bombs a building that is a legitimate military target, sometimes innocent people die. It sucks, but it's not enough to stop the strike from being necessary.

The military strike isn't too convincing as an analogy with capital punishment since we have the option to keep the perpetrator locked away for the rest of their lives. A military strike analogy doesn't take this into consideration. Life in prison simply removes the possibility of an innocent person being executed. I think the 135 innocent men whose lives have been saved to date are the tip of the iceberg and are a testament to how inhumane capital punishment is.

Michigan and Alaska... both states with no death penalty, typically have higher and more consistent murder rates than Texas and California, most notorious death penalty states, both of which show a general reduction in the murder rate over the course of time.

The general murder rate has declined overall in the U.S. by 3.9%. There is a reduction in Texas and California yes, but Louisiana, Missouri and Alabama still have the highest murder rates in the U.S., while non-death penalty states like Michigan has half the murder rate of Louisiana. I'm not sure why you chose Alaska as New York and New Jersey have higher murder rates and are non-death penalty states. My point still stands: even Michigan as the highest murder rate in a non-death penalty state has half the murders of Louisiana- not to mention that the other death penalty states like Arizona, Arkansas, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Missouri, Florida, Oklahoma and Texas have enormous murder rates in comparison to non-death penalty states.

The death penalty could be an effective deterrent if it were taken more seriously, inflicted more consistently and efficiently. People figure they won't get caught... and if they do get caught, there's no way they're getting death, and if they do, it'll be after at least 20 years anyway. It is not seen as a consequence for murder because in general, it hasn't been a consequence for murderer.

The problem becomes a balance between how much money to invest in the hopes of a more consistent and efficient application. If the funds aren't available and the process is streamlined it raises the risk of even more innocent people being executed. There has to be a certain degree where even a death penalty proponent agrees that the collateral damage isn't worth the risks.

People who commit capital crimes are not worried about being caught: it's either premediated, so any pretense of punishment is irrelevant since there's no plan to be caught anyway; or it's a spontaneous crime or crime of passion where there's absolutely no forethought and any indication of punishment is again irrelevant to the criminal. Neither category hesitates to think that they might be executed by the state if they're caught. The most recent study from this year concludes:

"These data show that deterrence, which in many circles is the strongest justification for the death penalty, falls on its face when closely examined by those who are best qualified to study and evaluate it... Any justification for the death penalty that might remain pale in comparison to drawbacks such as high costs, arbitrariness, executing the innocent and diverting resources from more effective ways to reduce crime and assist victims."​

 

[logician]

I have nothing against the death penalty on moral grounds (i.e. life is not sacred), however, there are 3 reasons why it is a bad idea.

1. Innocent people can and have been executed.
2. Our justice systems are too arbitrary from state to state and offense to offense for it to be a fair punishment.
3. As usual, minorities usually are discriminated against in having this punishment used against them much more than the majority.

 

[Wandered Off]

Nor is the death penalty as effective of a deterrent as you seem to think.

Is too! 100% of those so penalized are completely deterred.

 

[Nepenthe]

I fully support the death penalty and agree with this. Prison is a vacation home for criminals nowadays. If the death penalty was enforced more for murderers and opened up for rapist and child molesters. I guarantee you would see a drop in the rate of all 3 of these crimes. It would be worth the rare wrongful conviction ending in execution, to save the great number of innocent lives who fall victim to these monsters who have repeat offenses once released.

Info from several different sites report that about 30%-40% of criminals repeat the same crimes after released, and about 50%-55% go on to commit new crimes. That means we are looking at only 5%-20% come out of prison reformed and live crime free lives. That is not taken into account how many of them commit crimes, but do not get caught.......So the actual % of truly reformed criminals is lower than stated. Prison is not as an effective deterrent as most would think.

Hey Enoch'. You got the wrong person quoted in post #43. Could I bother you to change it to Poisonshady313?
Thanks.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Nor is the death penalty as effective of a deterrent as you seem to think.

Only because it's not used enough.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Only because it's not used enough.

Source?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Is too! 100% of those so penalized are completely deterred.

Hmm, maybe they could soften more people to the idea of the death penalty if they changed the name to "permanently deterred."

 

[McBell]

Since this is in the religious debates section, I figure I ought to at least offer this to the thread.

Genesis 9:6

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.

Disagree with it if you will... but it's there.

The most common verse used for the death penalty is Leviticus 24:20-21.
Death was the punishment of striking or even reviling a parent (Exodus 21:15; Exodus 21:17);
blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14; Leviticus 24:16; Leviticus 24:23);
Sabbath-breaking (Numbers 15:32-36);
witchcraft (Exodus 22:18);
adultery (Leviticus 20:10);
rape (Deuteronomy 22:25);
incestuous and unnatural connection (Leviticus 20:11; Leviticus 20:14; Leviticus 20:16);
man stealing (Exodus 21:16),
and idolatry (Leviticus 20:2).

There are several different methods used in the Bible to execute the capital punishment:

burning (Genesis 38:24; Leviticus 20:14; Daniel 3:6),
hanging (Numbers 25:4; Deuteronomy 21:22; Deuteronomy 21:23; Joshua 8:29; 2 Samuel 21:12; Esther 7:9; Esther 7:10),
crucifying (Matthew 20:19; Matthew 27:35),
beheading (Genesis 40:19; Mark 6:16; Mark 6:27), slaying with the sword (1 Samuel 15:33; Acts 12:2),
stoning (Leviticus 24:14; Deuteronomy 13:10; Acts 7:59),
cutting in pieces (Daniel 2:5; Matthew 24:51),
sawing asunder (Hebrews 11:37),
exposing to wild beasts (Daniel 6:16; Daniel 6:24; 1 Corinthians 15:32),
bruising in mortars (Proverbs 27:22),
casting headlong from a rock (2 Chronicles 25:12),
and even casting into the sea (Matthew 18:6).

​

So it is clear to see how, from these verses, how people can us the bible to justify capital punishment.

As Senator James Donovan said:

"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behavior?"

​

I can post the REST of my paper if anyone is interested.

 

[sandandfoam]

The death penalty is barbaric.
The irony of those who claim to love God, supporting murder by the state gives me a morbid laugh. "kill them all and let god decide"...............headbangers.

 

[Enoch07]

I have nothing against the death penalty on moral grounds (i.e. life is not sacred), however, there are 3 reasons why it is a bad idea.

1. Innocent people can and have been executed.
2. Our justice systems are too arbitrary from state to state and offense to offense for it to be a fair punishment.
3. As usual, minorities usually are discriminated against in having this punishment used against them much more than the majority.

No justice system is perfect or ever will be perfect. If you think you can come up with one please try.

Minorities are not discriminated against at all. This is since 1976 (when death penalty was reinstated). Info from a anti-death penalty website btw. Deathpenaltyinfo.org

State Total Black White Latino Asian Native Amer.
Alabama 43 21 22 0 0 0
Arizona 23 0 18 4 0 1
Arkansas 27 7 19 1 0 0
California 13 2 8 0 1 2
Colorado 1 0 1 0 0 0
Connecticut 1 0 1 0 0 0
Delaware 14 6 7 0 0 1
Florida 68 21 42 4 0 1
Georgia 45 15 30 0 0 0
Idaho 1 0 1 0 0 0
Illinois 12 5 7 0 0 0
Indiana 19 3 16 0 0 0
Kansas 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kentucky 3 0 3 0 0 0
Louisiana 27 13 14 0 0 0
Maryland 5 3 2 0 0 0
Mississippi 10 3 7 0 0 0
Missouri 67 26 40 0 0 1
Montana 3 0 3 0 0 0
Nebraska 3 2 1 0 0 0
Nevada 12 1 9 1 1 0
New Hampshire 0 0 0 0 0 0
New Jersey 0 0 0 0 0 0
New Mexico 1 0 1 0 0 0
New York 0 0 0 0 0 0
North Carolina 43 13 29 0 0 1
Ohio 32 11 21 0 0 0
Oklahoma 91 26 56 0 2 6
Oregon 2 0 2 0 0 0
Pennsylvania 3 0 3 0 0 0
South Carolina 42 16 26 0 0 0
South Dakota 1 0 1 0 0 0
Tennessee 5 0 5 0 0 0
Texas 439 161 202 72 2 2
Utah 6 2 4 0 0 0
Virginia 103 48 52 2 1 0
Washington 4 0 4 0 0 0
Wyoming 1 0 1 0 0 0
US Gov't 3 1 1 1 0 0
US Military 0 0 0 0 0 0

Totals 1172 Black= 406 White=659 Latino=85 Asian=7 Native American=15

As you can see far more whites have been executed per death penalty than all minorities combined. 659 whites to 513 minorities (combined). If anything the death penalty is discriminating against white people. Considering that homicide rate among black people is 7 times that of whites. File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Yet more white people are sentenced to death than any other race. More info at Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, for those interested.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Minorities are not discriminated against at all. This is since 1976 (when death penalty was reinstated). Info from a anti-death penalty website btw. Deathpenaltyinfo.org

Totals 1172 Black= 406 White=659 Latino=85 Asian=7 Native American=15

I take it you don't understand the concept of "proportion."

Hint: Whites make up 74% of the population - Blacks make up 13.5% of the population. Extrapolate.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Life in prison simply removes the possibility of an innocent person being executed.

Though it still allows for the possibility of these inmates being released by the state because of prison overpopulation, and moving on to kill more innocent people. (Look up Kenneth McDuff) Or the possibility of prisoners killing prison guards (Look up Lemuel Smith).

I think the 135 innocent men whose lives have been saved to date are the tip of the iceberg and are a testament to how inhumane capital punishment is.

That's a matter that should be dealt with in the courtroom. Forget sentencing... why were these 135 innocent people convicted in the first place? How many innocent people are serving life sentences? Maybe we should abolish life sentences too. How many innocent people are serving time at all? Maybe we should abolish prison.

This is an imperfect world... and the criminal justice system is an imperfect system. Murderers no longer deserve to live... and they shouldn't be spared because a jury of 12 shmucks get the wrong answer from time to time. The court system should be cleaned up... not the death penalty done away with.

There is a reduction in Texas and California yes, but Louisiana, Missouri and Alabama still have the highest murder rates in the U.S., while non-death penalty states like Michigan has half the murder rate of Louisiana. I'm not sure why you chose Alaska as New York and New Jersey have higher murder rates and are non-death penalty states. My point still stands: even Michigan as the highest murder rate in a non-death penalty state has half the murders of Louisiana- not to mention that the other death penalty states like Arizona, Arkansas, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Missouri, Florida, Oklahoma and Texas have enormous murder rates in comparison to non-death penalty states.

Something is fundamentally flawed regarding you interpretation of the numbers... on top of the fact that you've only looked at one year, instead of several like you can here:

Murder Rates 1996 - 2007 | Death Penalty Information Center

But consider this:

In 2008, Louisiana has a murder rate twice as high as Texas... yet since 1976, Louisiana has executed 27 people... Texas has executed 439.

More relevant to the source you provided, in 2008, Texas executed 18 people. Louisiana executed none.

If you were to be believed, this shouldn't be... Louisiana should have, at most, half the murder rate of Texas...


Which says to me that the death penalty, as it is currently applied, has no effect whatsoever on a state's murder rate. It says to me that those states with the death penalty have them because of the high murder rate... and not the other way around.

So I still maintain that if the death penalty were used more consistently and more frequently, it would be taken more seriously... and people might begin to think of it as a possible consequence for their actions.

The problem becomes a balance between how much money to invest in the hopes of a more consistent and efficient application. If the funds aren't available and the process is streamlined it raises the risk of even more innocent people being executed. There has to be a certain degree where even a death penalty proponent agrees that the collateral damage isn't worth the risks.

I wonder at what point the cost of building more prisons, and paying for every one of those prisoners that fills those prisons, becomes more expensive than regularly executing murderers.

And with all of these people being exonerated by DNA, I figure it's got to be much harder to put innocent people on death row these days. The people being let out of death row today were sitting there for quite some time. The risk of executing innocents should be decreasing.

People who commit capital crimes are not worried about being caught: it's either premediated, so any pretense of punishment is irrelevant since there's no plan to be caught anyway; or it's a spontaneous crime or crime of passion where there's absolutely no forethought and any indication of punishment is again irrelevant to the criminal. Neither category hesitates to think that they might be executed by the state if they're caught. The most recent study from this year concludes:

"These data show that deterrence, which in many circles is the strongest justification for the death penalty, falls on its face when closely examined by those who are best qualified to study and evaluate it... Any justification for the death penalty that might remain pale in comparison to drawbacks such as high costs, arbitrariness, executing the innocent and diverting resources from more effective ways to reduce crime and assist victims."​

We'll never know, unless there comes a day when capital punishment is inflicted as consistently and as regularly as it should be.

 

[Caladan]

Since this is in the religious debates section, I figure I ought to at least offer this to the thread.

Genesis 9:6

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.

Disagree with it if you will... but it's there.

Im good with the current ideology of the state of Israel about capital punishment. the state simply does not execute anyone. there is only ONE case of capital punishment sanctioned in Israel- against Nazi war criminal Adolph Eichman. the historical philosophy behind Israel's lack of capital punishment is in Talmudic lore, in which the Jewish sages made it practically impossible to execute the death penalty.

 

[Enoch07]

I take it you don't understand the concept of "proportion."

Hint: Whites make up 74% of the population - Blacks make up 13.5% of the population. Extrapolate.

Proportion has nothing to do with the fact that blacks commit homicide 7 times more than whites, yet are executed less than whites. Or are you gonna ignore that? I would just like to add I do not think the justice system discriminates at all, but the numbers do not reflect that.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I take it you don't understand the concept of "proportion."

Hint: Whites make up 74% of the population - Blacks make up 13.5% of the population. Extrapolate.

Is it possible in your mind that there is an outrageous number of black people committing crime, relative to their population... or do you just figure that the majority of white crime is let go by cops and/or judges and/or juries looking the other way?


A different example...

Jews are less than .2% of the world's population... yet 22% of Nobel Prizes are won by Jews. Do you figure the Nobel Prize people are discriminating against non-Jews... or is it possible that one group of people has outstanding achievement among its members in higher numbers relative to its population?

Are blacks really being discriminated against... or do they just happen to be more prone to committing violent crimes?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Im good with the current ideology of the state of Israel about capital punishment. the state simply does not execute anyone. there is only ONE case of capital punishment sanctioned in Israel- against Nazi war criminal Adolph Eichman. the historical philosophy behind Israel's lack of capital punishment is in Talmudic lore, in which the Jewish sages made it practically impossible to execute the death penalty.

A country fighting for survival can't afford to execute its own people when there are enough Palestinians willing to kill Israelis for no reason.

As far as I'm concerned, though it's not formally considered capital punishment, any time Israel causes the death of a terrorist, it is executing the death penalty.