The Death Penalty

[Enoch07]

What if the innocent person was you, your father, your mother, your brother or one of your children?

If I (or a family member) am innocent then I would do the best I could to prove that innocence. If I am executed for it what can I do? Nothing so why worry about it. Death is not the end of everything, I have a fascinating afterlife ahead of me to look forward to. If my wrongful conviction and execution even saves 1 innocent child from being raped and murdered by a mad man then so be it.

 

[sandandfoam]

Part of that is due to the elimination of the IRA. After the extreme violence and murders committed by the IRA I would say that the Irish are tired of seeing death and destruction Provisional Irish Republican Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I disagree. The provos did most of their murdering on the other side of the border. The statistics I gave were for the Republic, not including Northern Ireland.

 

[sandandfoam]

If I (or a family member) am innocent then I would do the best I could to prove that innocence. If I am executed for it what can I do? Nothing so why worry about it. Death is not the end of everything, I have a fascinating afterlife ahead of me to look forward to. If my wrongful conviction and execution even saves 1 innocent child from being raped and murdered by a mad man then so be it.

You worry about innocents being killed by 'madmen' but innocents being killed by the government is a price worth paying?
Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

 

[Enoch07]

You worry about innocents being killed by 'madmen' but innocents being killed by the government is a price worth paying?
Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

You are not weighing in the numbers. Innocents executed by justice system is a very small %. Innocents saved by preventing murderers from reaching them COUNTLESS. You would risk many peoples lives to save just ONE, whereas I risk a few's life to save MANY. There is a huge difference you are totally ignoring here. You can call me a monster all you want but the the amount of lives saved is worth the risk of losing a few wrongly convicted.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Look at some facts.
Ireland - No death penalty - murder rate per 100,000 in 2007=0.32
USA - Death penalty - murder rate per 100,000 in 2007= 5.6
sources Ireland the safest country in Europe, report says - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie
United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2008

If you want meaningful numbers, give us numbers on crime in the US from 1967 to 1977, and how those numbers are different from crime in the US before that period, and after that period.

 

[Enoch07]

If you want meaningful numbers, give us numbers on crime in the US from 1967 to 1977, and how those numbers are different from crime in the US before that period, and after that period.

File:US Violent Crime Rate.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Violent crime more than doubled from 1967 to 1977. If you look on the chart though you can see the effects of suspension and the reinstation of capital punishment. Capital punishment was suspended in 1972 you can see the chart levels off completely that year for violent crime. Then it increases steadily until 1976 when capital punishment was reinstated there was significant drop in violent crime. I think that is indicative that the death penalty is a deterrent.

 

[Nepenthe]

No justice system is perfect or ever will be perfect. If you think you can come up with one please try.

That's kind of the whole point of opposing the death penalty- no system is perfect so any system that allows the potential for innocent people to be murdered should not be implemented.

Minorities are not discriminated against at all. This is since 1976 (when death penalty was reinstated). Info from a anti-death penalty website btw. Deathpenaltyinfo.org
...
Totals 1172 Black= 406 White=659 Latino=85 Asian=7 Native American=15

As you can see far more whites have been executed per death penalty than all minorities combined. 659 whites to 513 minorities (combined). If anything the death penalty is discriminating against white people. Considering that homicide rate among black people is 7 times that of whites. File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Yet more white people are sentenced to death than any other race. More info at Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, for those interested.

More whites have been executed, but only 12 have been executed for killing blacks, while 183 blacks have been executed for killing whites. Blacks are discriminated against: white victims with black perpetrators result in harsher sentences than black on black or white on black crime. 80% of people executed since 1976 have been executed for murders involving white victims. In 2000, the national incarceration rate for whites was 366 per 100,000; blacks 2,209 per 100,000. Blacks comprise 13% of the U.S. population, but represent 43% of arrests, 54% convictions, and 59% incarcerations. There may be a disproportionate correlation between Blacks and crime, poverty and social conditions, but regardless Blacks are suspected, arrested, convicted and incarcerated at disproportionately higher numbes than whites.

 

[Aquitaine]

Providing that the prisoner is found guilty, and actually is guilty, then I see no problems with Capital Punishment.

Although more must be done to ensure the right people are convicted, and not innocent people.

 

[logician]

I take it you don't understand the concept of "proportion."

Hint: Whites make up 74% of the population - Blacks make up 13.5% of the population. Extrapolate.

Obviously, Enoch knows nothing about statistics.

Again, minorities are discriminated against much more than whites, and our justice system has been proven time and again to be extremely arbritrary from one state to the next, (and even in different counties) for the same offense. The death penalty simply should not be imposed.

 

[Nepenthe]

Though it still allows for the possibility of these inmates being released by the state because of prison overpopulation, and moving on to kill more innocent people. (Look up Kenneth McDuff) Or the possibility of prisoners killing prison guards (Look up Lemuel Smith).

Of course it allows for guilty people to be let free, that's why drug laws should be abolished and prison used for actual criminal behavior- 21% of all federal prisoners are non-violent drug offenders. Problem solved... but that's probably for another thread.

I'm well aware of the potential of violence against prison guards, but it's not a statistically relevant issue. To quote you, "it's an imperfect world and the criminal justice system is an imperfect system", and prison guards chose their admittedly damgerous occupation so I don't see that as a compelling argument at all.

That's a matter that should be dealt with in the courtroom. Forget sentencing... why were these 135 innocent people convicted in the first place? How many innocent people are serving life sentences? Maybe we should abolish life sentences too. How many innocent people are serving time at all? Maybe we should abolish prison.

How does any of this follow? State sanctioned killing is irreversible; life sentences are not irreversible. How does anything you just said logically lead to abolishing prisons?

Something is fundamentally flawed regarding you interpretation of the numbers... on top of the fact that you've only looked at one year, instead of several like you can here:

Murder Rates 1996 - 2007 | Death Penalty Information Center

I listed a chart but didn't quote any numbers. And yes, it was for one year, but the info. you linked confirms what I was saying: death penalty states have a higher incidence of murder.

But consider this:

In 2008, Louisiana has a murder rate twice as high as Texas... yet since 1976, Louisiana has executed 27 people... Texas has executed 439.

More relevant to the source you provided, in 2008, Texas executed 18 people. Louisiana executed none.

If you were to be believed, this shouldn't be... Louisiana should have, at most, half the murder rate of Texas...

Which says to me that the death penalty, as it is currently applied, has no effect whatsoever on a state's murder rate. It says to me that those states with the death penalty have them because of the high murder rate... and not the other way around.

Then why would a state like New Hampshire have the death penalty yet the lowest crime rate in the U.S? So your interpretation, per the Texas-Louisiana example above, is that the quantity of capital deaths should correlate with a higher or lower murder rate?

 

[Enoch07]

Obviously, Enoch knows nothing about statistics.

There is 5.6 white people per 1 black person. Yet black people commit homicide 7 times more than white people. I offer File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia yet again as proof. And you claim it is discrimination? How can you call yourself a person of logic and reason when you ignore the numbers? All you have done so far is list a biased opinion.

That's kind of the whole point of opposing the death penalty- no system is perfect so any system that allows the potential for innocent people to be murdered should not be implemented.

More whites have been executed, but only 12 have been executed for killing blacks, while 183 blacks have been executed for killing whites. Blacks are discriminated against: white victims with black perpetrators result in harsher sentences than black on black or white on black crime.

Haha so because it is not perfect we should not use it, even though you admit no system is perfect. You do realize there is this thing called human error? It is unavoidable, nothing of human hands/minds can be perfect.

Where are you getting your numbers? Because they do not match mine. From Wikipedia: A subsequent United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed for which the identity of the offender could be determined, 52.1% of the offenders were Black, 45.9% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 51% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. African Americans are disproportionately the offender in workplace killings. For example, in work place killings, 26.7% of offenders are Black out of a total African American population of about 13.4%. The report further noted that, "most murders are interracial", with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks. [11] The document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".

How many whites are convicted of murdering blacks vs blacks convicted of murdering whites? According to the numbers black people murder more white people than vice-versa. I don't see how this is the fault of the justice system, they are just hearing the crimes that happen, they are not determining what crimes are happening.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Then why would a state like New Hampshire have the death penalty yet the lowest crime rate in the U.S?

You tell me. According to your method of reasoning, it should have a higher death rate than states without the death penalty.

So your interpretation, per the Texas-Louisiana example above, is that the quantity of capital deaths should correlate with a higher or lower murder rate?

Neither. The death penalty isn't carried out with enough consistency. Any heinous murderer in the country has less than a 1% chance of being executed. I base that number on the number of executions in this country since 76 compared to the number of convicted murderers since that time... a number I don't have, but can assume is significantly greater than 1,173.


What I was saying with the Texas-Louisiana example is that the people who claim that death penalty states have higher murder rates cannot honestly say that having the death penalty in that state affects the murder rate in any way, because the one state that executes the most people has 19 states with higher murder rates... at least two of them with no death penalty statute... and I'm not sure at the moment how many more haven't actually executed anybody.

 

[Tyr]

Death penalty is one of the best punishments legal systems have. I believe it sends out the right message if you are dumb enough to do something that atrocious to even be considered for the death penalty you deserved it. In my honest oppinion the death penalty should be expanded in order to be used in wider variety of cases. This is old but is also a subject im very firm on. IT has been used for years and will be used for years to come, so far I think it has worked pretty well.

 

[Nepenthe]

There is 5.6 white people per 1 black person. Yet black people commit homicide 7 times more than white people. I offer File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia yet again as proof.

I never addressed this point whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you claim this "yet again as proof". My point, and the links I included, show a correlation between harsher sentences imposed on blacks who murder whites than black on black murders, or white on black murders.

And you claim it is discrimination? How can you call yourself a person of logic and reason when you ignore the numbers? All you have done so far is list a biased opinion.

I didn't ignore the numbers. See above. I linked the evidence in my previous post(s)- and some were academic and/or peer reviewed papers in sociology, not Wikipedia links.

Haha so because it is not perfect we should not use it, even though you admit no system is perfect. You do realize there is this thing called human error? It is unavoidable, nothing of human hands/minds can be perfect.

That's my point exactly. I've said it twice now, and I'll say it a third so I don't have to repeat myself: any punishment that results in something as final as death should not be state sanctioned due to the human error. It's fine in situations where it can be reversed, amended or compensated if a mistake is made, but death is not correctable.

Where are you getting your numbers? Because they do not match mine.

I linked and referenced all my sources in the posts.

From Wikipedia: A subsequent United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed for which the identity of the offender could be determined, 52.1% of the offenders were Black, 45.9% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 51% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. African Americans are disproportionately the offender in workplace killings. For example, in work place killings, 26.7% of offenders are Black out of a total African American population of about 13.4%. The report further noted that, "most murders are interracial", with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks. [11] The document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations "White", "Black", or "Other Races".


How many whites are convicted of murdering blacks vs blacks convicted of murdering whites? According to the numbers black people murder more white people than vice-versa. I don't see how this is the fault of the justice system, they are just hearing the crimes that happen, they are not determining what crimes are happening.

I never addressed any of this in my posts, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to address here.

 

[kai]

look you can do what you like with statistics but the facts remain.

Killing people is a basic wrong --no? the state should set an example---no?

Innocent people accused of capital crimes get released quite often---NO

The so called leader of the free world executes people?-------doesnt make sense to me.


and I don't think deterrence comes in to play with most murders because they are perpetrated when someone is unbalanced. Like on the spur of the moment in temper or actually unbalanced mentally,The premeditated murder for gain etc is not that common.

 

[Nepenthe]

You tell me. According to your method of reasoning, it should have a higher death rate than states without the death penalty.

Neither. The death penalty isn't carried out with enough consistency. Any heinous murderer in the country has less than a 1% chance of being executed. I base that number on the number of executions in this country since 76 compared to the number of convicted murderers since that time... a number I don't have, but can assume is significantly greater than 1,173.

What I was saying with the Texas-Louisiana example is that the people who claim that death penalty states have higher murder rates cannot honestly say that having the death penalty in that state affects the murder rate in any way, because the one state that executes the most people has 19 states with higher murder rates... at least two of them with no death penalty statute... and I'm not sure at the moment how many more haven't actually executed anybody.

I'm not arguing that capital punishment causes murder rates to soar, but that there's no evidence of a correlation between the death penalty and a decreased murder rate. But there's no denying that states with the death penalty had a 41% to 101% higher homicide rate than non-death penalty states. I understand the "public, swift, certain, and severe" opinion in applying the punishment, but I don't know at what point you'd accept that executions aren't a deterrent.

 

[Enoch07]

I never addressed this point whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you claim this "yet again as proof". My point, and the links I included, show a correlation between harsher sentences imposed on blacks who murder whites than black on black murders, or white on black murders.

I didn't ignore the numbers. See above. I linked the evidence in my previous post(s)- and some were academic and/or peer reviewed papers in sociology, not Wikipedia links.

While I used wikipedia links they got their info from the Department of Justice. I just ask you provide some non-biased information. You are using anti-death penalty websites with biased information they use to support their cause. I am using unbiased info, so I trust it more.

That's my point exactly. I've said it twice now, and I'll say it a third so I don't have to repeat myself: any punishment that results in something as final as death should not be state sanctioned due to the human error. It's fine in situations where it can be reversed, amended or compensated if a mistake is made, but death is not correctable.

I linked and referenced all my sources in the posts.

I never addressed any of this in my posts, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to address here.

Yes you have you said that only 12 white people have been executed for murdering black people, and 183 black people were executed for murdering white people. This is not due to discrimination though.

It is because black people commit way more homicides than white people. From DoJ: The report further noted that, "most murders are intraracial", with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.

Do the math whites kill whites 86% of the time leaving 14% of whites being slain by minorities. Blacks kill blacks 94% of the time leaving only 6% left for whites/other minorities. That in itself is proof that minorities kill more whites than whites kill minorities. So when you say only 12 white people are executed it is not surprising. Because they commit the crime LESS.

Here scroll down to the bottom of the page and review charts based on race. Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race. You will see that what I say is true. If you deny this then you are calling the DoJ liars. Which nothing I can do about that but I trust them more than biased liberals.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'm not arguing that capital punishment causes murder rates to soar, but that there's no evidence of a correlation between the death penalty and a decreased murder rate.

And I'm saying... because the death penalty isn't applied consistently enough, you're not going to see it.

When it takes 33 years to execute 1173 murderers, you can't make a claim one way or the other about its deterrence effect, because it's not a real enough factor to create change one way or the other. It can be if it were carried out more consistently.

But there's no denying that states with the death penalty had a 41% to 101% higher homicide rate than non-death penalty states.

All but 2 death penalty states have taken 33 years to execute less than 100 murderers... which means the vast majority of death penalty states have had many years within the past 33 in which no executions took place, and other years where maybe a small handful of executions took place...

Which means your "higher homicide rate" numbers are meaningless.

Again.. the fact that New Hampshire has the lowest murder rate in the country means your statement is meaningless. The fact that there are two states without the death penalty that have higher murder rates than the one state with the most number of executions in the last 33 years also makes your statement meaningless.

I understand the "public, swift, certain, and severe" opinion in applying the punishment, but I don't know at what point you'd accept that executions aren't a deterrent.

When, in any given year and in any given state, more than 50% of those found guilty for capital offenses are punished by death and the murder rate in that state stays the same or rises in the following year, then I'd accept that executions aren't a deterrent.

 

[kai]

Has a murderer ever declared he was deterred by the death penalty?

lets take a premeditated murder for gain, just an outright crime, no anger, no passion, no mental instability involved at all, just for money, In my opinion the penalty doesn't come into it because the perpetrator doesn't intend to get caught.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Based on the population of Texas in 1999, and the murder rate of Texas in 1999... there were about 1222 murders in Texas in 1999.

If we assume that each murderer had 5 victims, we're talking about 224 murderers in the state of Texas in 1999. (which is a low number of murderers for 1222 victims)

As a whole, this country executed a total of 98 people in 1999 (the most executions in any one year).

Get that... in this whole nation, where 36 states have death penalty statutes, less than half of the number of murderers from one state that would have been sentenced in 1999 were put to death.

Not nearly enough murderers are put to death... in any state, in any year.

Oh... and for what it's worth... Texas had 20 executions in 1998... and the overall crime rate in Texas dropped 1.5% (the Murder rate dropped .7 per 100,000) from 1998 to 1999 . Not that it's significant, especially in light of my previous posts... but I figure I'd toss that out there.