That seems to be a transparent rationalization. Can you offer a better line of reasoning?
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The Death Penalty
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
That seems to be a transparent rationalization. Can you offer a better line of reasoning?
richardlowellt
Well-Known Member
I don't believe this to be true.
McBell
Unbound
Seems to me it depends upon if the one using that line is using it to justify revenge or if they are using it in proper Biblical context.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Yeah, Texas wants to teach Intelligent Destruction in weather classes. Those secular meteorologists are always trying to leave God out of the weather.
Try to stay on the topic please. This debate is about Death Penalty. Not religion vs science.
linwood
Well-Known Member
McBell
Unbound
I disagree.But the proper Biblical context is a justification of revenge anyway..so....
The Biblical context of that line is about the punishment fitting the crime.
NOT about revenge.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Dangerous thread for me, but I'll try to keep my cool this time.
My personal theology could be used to argue either side, but as I said, I believe it's acceptable.
I'm ambivalent, myself. I do believe in it, but I don't have faith in our current system. So, I've decided that until some serious reforms get enacted, I can't support it in good conscience.
UU, as is so often the case, leaves it up to the individual. However, the vast majority (imx), interpret the First Principle (the inherent worth and dignity of every person), as incompatible with capital punishment.
My personal theology could be used to argue either side, but as I said, I believe it's acceptable.
No worries, I use "guys" the same way.
Perfect Circle
Just Browsing
Shouldn't you be getting on to Logik about this...
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Seriously... no state sets out to purposefully and knowingly execute innocent people.
Murderers, by virtue of being murderers, always do purposefully and knowingly murder innocent people.
The court system should do everything it can to prevent innocent people from being convicted.
Carrying out the sentences for convicts, however, should be consistent.
By the way... what happens if you have an innocent convict serve a life sentence... dies in prison... are you supposed to feel better knowing that he COULD have been exonerated because he wasn't put to death years earlier? That doesn't help anybody...
And then, you have some people that argue that life in prison is a worse punishment than death, because death is an easy out... so you'd rather have innocent people suffer longer than be put out of their misery (because if there are so many innocent convicts being released these days, makes you wonder how many innocent convicts AREN'T being released)?
The court system needs to change so that it convicts people properly.
Otherwise... "innocent until proven guilty" is meaningless, and you might as well presume that all prisoners are innocent. Which would mean we're locking up all kinds of people for no reason.
Because if we can never really know enough to put them to death for it... we shouldn't be sentencing anyone at all.
linwood
Well-Known Member
logician
Well-Known Member
For cripes sake, you go by percentages, not just raw totals, blacks only make up about 15 percent of the nation, so they should only have about 15 percent of the nunbers executed than whites, if things were actually equal. They are obviously being discriminated against at all levels of the justice system.
Not when blacks commit 7 times more homicide than whites. File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. So of course the % of blacks executed is going to be more than the % of whites executed.
Here I will do the math for you. Since charts can be complicated for some people. Whites murder about 5 people per 100,000 population per year. Blacks murder about 35 people per 100,000 population per year. 35 divided by 5 = 7. Which means blacks commit 7 times more homicides than whites. Since 1976, 406 blacks were executed vs 659 whites that was executed, and you say that the death penalty discriminates against blacks?
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
if you want your numbers to mean anything, they need to be fairly applied.
If blacks are 15% of the nation... then blacks should be 15% of the prison population (unless more black people happen to commit crimes. Let's not be letting guilty people go just because their racial group has exceeded their prison population quota).
If you want to see what percentage of blacks are being executed, vs whites being executed, you need look at only the number of blacks and whites ON DEATH ROW.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Looking at these sources side by side
U.S. Executions Since 1976
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
I see an interesting picture emerge.
From 1966 to 1980, the murder rate nation wide very nearly doubled (from 5.6 to 10.2 per 100,000)
In this time, a grand total of four people were put to death.
1 in 1966
1 in 1977
2 in 1979
1980 was the peak of the nationwide murder rate. Nobody was executed in 1980.
And then, executions slowly increased from year to year... the murder rate kind of went back and forth, never again getting as high as it was in 1980.. then it fell in 1994 and kept on dropping till about 2001. At that point, the murder rate kept at a steady average of 5.5 per 100,000 (never above 5.7, never below 5.4)
1999 saw the most number of executions in any year... 98.
2000 saw a decrease in murder rate from 5.7 to 5.5 per 100,000... even with an increase in population by more than 8 million.
From 2001 till 2008, the average number of executions per year was 56.
Never more than 71, never less than 35.
Those years saw very nearly half the murder rate as 77-82, when executions per year were still in low single digits.
U.S. Executions Since 1976
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
I see an interesting picture emerge.
From 1966 to 1980, the murder rate nation wide very nearly doubled (from 5.6 to 10.2 per 100,000)
In this time, a grand total of four people were put to death.
1 in 1966
1 in 1977
2 in 1979
1980 was the peak of the nationwide murder rate. Nobody was executed in 1980.
And then, executions slowly increased from year to year... the murder rate kind of went back and forth, never again getting as high as it was in 1980.. then it fell in 1994 and kept on dropping till about 2001. At that point, the murder rate kept at a steady average of 5.5 per 100,000 (never above 5.7, never below 5.4)
1999 saw the most number of executions in any year... 98.
2000 saw a decrease in murder rate from 5.7 to 5.5 per 100,000... even with an increase in population by more than 8 million.
From 2001 till 2008, the average number of executions per year was 56.
Never more than 71, never less than 35.
Those years saw very nearly half the murder rate as 77-82, when executions per year were still in low single digits.
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Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Blacks are convicted of homicide 7 times more than whites. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the rampant racism in all levels of our justice system is naive or racist.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yes, but I think it's also a mistake to assume that the percentages should be identical. Blacks have a much higher chance of living in poverty. Poverty breeds crime. Does it not make sense, then that blacks would be more likely to become criminals?
I don't think it's about race so much as class.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I don't think there's any basis for assuming the percentages should be identical.
I agree that socioeconomic status is more of a determining factor of criminal behavior than race.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
OK. But someone (too lazy to look it up) was saying that the percentages of convictions and executions should match those of population. I think that's just as naive as denying the institutional racism.
Racism is almost certainly a factor, but it doesn't wholly account for the discrepencies.