The Death Penalty

[Nepenthe]

While I used wikipedia links they got their info from the Department of Justice. I just ask you provide some non-biased information. You are using anti-death penalty websites with biased information they use to support their cause. I am using unbiased info, so I trust it more.

I referenced a Department of Sociology George Washington University, Washington, DC study as well as Amnesty International and the DPIC which referenced a Survey of the Federal Death Penalty System from the United States Department of Justice.

Yes you have you said that only 12 white people have been executed for murdering black people, and 183 black people were executed for murdering white people. This is not due to discrimination though.
...
It is because black people commit way more homicides than white people...

Again, I never addressed any of this much less said anything about "lying".

 

[Nepenthe]

And I'm saying... because the death penalty isn't applied consistently enough, you're not going to see it.

And I'm saying no threat of death is a deterrent based on criminals not considering the ramifications of their acts. What would constitute consistency: "in any given year and in any given state, more than 50% of those found guilty for capital offenses are punished by death"?

When it takes 33 years to execute 1173 murderers, you can't make a claim one way or the other about its deterrence effect, because it's not a real enough factor to create change one way or the other. It can be if it were carried out more consistently.

How do you arrive at this? If no one can make a claim either way how do you arrive at the death penalty being ineffective since it's not consistent?

 

[Enoch07]

Again, I never addressed any of this much less said anything about "lying".

Sorry not lying. Twisting the truth to suit your needs. How foolish of me. Numbers don't lie. You use the fact that only 12 white people being executed vs 183 blacks and say it is discrimination. When if you look at the homicide rates for whites vs blacks you see why, the proof is in the poodin'.

 

[Sunstone]

Even if you could somehow arrange for the death penalty to be a general deterrent, it might not be desirable to allow the state to execute people due to the near certainty the state would screw up and execute innocent people. To dismiss the execution of innocent people as "collateral damage" would allow a murderer to dismiss his murders as "collateral damage".

 

[Nepenthe]

Sorry not lying. Twisting the truth to suit your needs. How foolish of me. Numbers don't lie. You use the fact that only 12 white people being executed vs 183 blacks and say it is discrimination. When if you look at the homicide rates for whites vs blacks you see why, the proof is in the poodin'.

No twisting necessary. I'll try again: the General Accounting Office did a meta-analysis- that is, a statistical study that combines the results of many studies to arrive at a common measure of effect size which is in turn made into a regression model or meta-regression. Here's the study in the Journal of Criminal Justice titled Race and Sentencing. It costs $ though, so here's a link to an abstract which boils it down to:

Spoiler: Race and Sentencing

Are African-Americans treated more harshly than similarly situated whites? This research employs meta-analysis to synthesize this body of research. One-hundred-sixteen statistically independent contrasts were coded from 71 published and unpublished studies. Coded study and contextual features are used to explain variation in research findings. Analyses indicate that African-Americans generally are sentenced more harshly than whites; the magnitude of this race effect is statistically significant but small and highly variable. Larger estimates of unwarranted disparity are found in contrasts that examine drug offenses, imprisonment or discretionary decisions, do not pool cases from several smaller jurisdictions, utilize imprecise measures, or omit key variables. Yet, even when consideration is confined to those contrasts employing key controls and precise measures of key variables, unwarranted racial disparities persists. Further, a substantial proportion of variability in study results is explained by study factors, particularly methodological factors.​

The study is a meta-analysis that factors in the disproportionate homicide rates between blacks and whites. And here's a recent study (2006) which "controlling for a wide array of factors, we found that in cases involving a White victim, the more stereotypically Black a defendant is perceived to be, the more likely that person is to be sentenced to death."http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/deathworthy.pdf​

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Enoch07, would you mind correcting post #43 where you quote me and it wasn't my post? It was Poisonshady313 you were quoting. Thx.

 

[Duck]

Personally, I haven't made up my mind about the death penalty.

What do various religions say about the death penalty? I know Catholicism is definitely against it.

What do you guys think (forgive the term "guys" I know many of you are ladies)?

Personally, I find the death penalty an abhorrent practice. I think that the application of such penalty is entirely too skewed against minorities and the poor.

I acknowledge freely that were I to be in position of having a loved one's murderer found guilty by jury trial, I would want vengeance and quickly.

Looked at religiously, from my religious perspective, I am not sure of my religion's stance. On the one hand, the various source tales indicate that the death penalty was possibly present (Otr's death, the ring of the dwarf Andvari, and eventually the Volsung saga) with the options presented for the accidental death of Otr being payment of weregild or death. But the presence of the weregild option indicating that by no means was the death penalty mandatory. On the other hand, Vidar is the god of vengeance and is foretold to avenge Odin's death at Ragnarok.

So, personally, I am against the death penalty while reserving the right to be hypocritical about my beliefs without violating at all my religious convictions.

 

[Poisonshady313]

And I'm saying no threat of death is a deterrent based on criminals not considering the ramifications of their acts. What would constitute consistency: "in any given year and in any given state, more than 50% of those found guilty for capital offenses are punished by death"?

It would be a start.

How do you arrive at this? If no one can make a claim either way how do you arrive at the death penalty being ineffective since it's not consistent?

If you take the number of murder convictions in this country over the course of 33 years - a number I don't have, yet I'm willing to assume is more than 150,000 - compared to the number of executions in the past 33 years... you come to find out that 0% of all murderers in the past 33 years have been executed.

I took the murder rate and population of the year 2004, and multiplied the number of murders by 33 years, and came up with more than 500,000.

1173 is 0.2 percent of 500,000

Statistically, it's as if we don't even have the death penalty in this country... which means one cannot legitimately criticize its affect on murder rates..... because it has no effect on murder rates one way or the other... because its use is virtually non-existent.


Let's look at one year. 2004.

in 2004, the US population was 293,655,404.

The murder rate is per 100,000.... so with a nationwide murder rate of 5.5 per 100,000 in 2004, we're talking about 16,151 murders.

59 murderers were put to death in 2004.

0.3% of murderers were put to death in 2004.

0% It might as well not even have happened.

How can you talk about the affects of something that didn't happen?

 

[McBell]

Let the punishment fit the crime.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Even if you could somehow arrange for the death penalty to be a general deterrent, it might not be desirable to allow the state to execute people due to the near certainty the state would screw up and execute innocent people. To dismiss the execution of innocent people as "collateral damage" would allow a murderer to dismiss his murders as "collateral damage".

Murder is unlawful.

Execution by the state is, by definition, lawful.

Execution by state of an innocent person is not intentional, therefore not murder.

So you could not compare the actions of the state wrongly executing someone and a murderer murdering someone.

 

[Logikal1]

I hear many Christians [& others] quoting that (in)famous 'Eye for an eye'. These people haven't the foggiest notion of what that phrase actually means. It used to be - back in the 'uncivilized ages' - when someone did something against you or a member of your family (or fellow villager) you & your buddies got together and killed not just the person at fault but everyone in town - up to & including the livestock! Which is precisely what Joshua did when his sister was raped. FYI that was the last time they pulled that stunt in the Bible. Why?

Very shortly thereafter at Sinai G-d changed the rules. He put a kibosh on the revenge & said it would be strictly equal justice from then on. 'An eye for an eye, an arm for an arm, etc" If a man killed your goat, you got back one goat & that was IT. This was so radical it set the Hebrews apart from all the other peoples: they were often referred to as the 'just ones' or 'those with the Law'. So 'eye for an eye' was pretty much G-d's way of starting man on the road to civilization.

All was fine, then Jesus took it up a full notch. When confronted with an execution in progress He said simply, "let the one who has never sinned cast the first stone". There's no possible way to reinterpret that; also no way to get around the fact we as Christians risk our immortal souls when we support the death penalty in any way. Why our souls? Because Jesus was quoted multiple times in the Gospels saying 'the measure you use against another is the same one to be used to measure you' , 'judge not lest ye be judged', and, of course, 'Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who've sinned against us.' Pretty scary stuff: God's almost double-daring us to cast judgements -or lethal injections - at others! Imagine having been on a jury & voted for a death sentence. Then you die. Now G-d's standing there tapping a syringe in His hand asking 'Which part of 'Thou shalt not kill' did you not understand?

For whatever reason when I say I'm anti-death penalty otherwise kind & saintly Christians try to convince me Jesus really didn't mean for us to give up the death penalty.(?) Nor will they accept it doesn't work & never has."Well it works once..for that guy" they invariably sputter. I tell 'em in England they used to hang pickpockets. Just guess when many folks got their pockets picked? Yep! During the hangings.

ps. Engyo - that Buddha quip is priceless! & Karmic principle is simple: what goes around, comes around. Violence begets violence. Peace begets peace. If the wheel picks up more negative value than positive then Karma shifts down. If more positive than negative, then Karma settles up. Texas's been killing an avg.inmate/week (or more) for 15 years. They've been hit with increasingly vicious natural disasters ever since resuming executions. Lessee...150,000 refugees from LA, Ike, temps >100 for weeks on end,13 oil rig spills in the Gulf last year, a 7 yr killer drought (no end in sight), lost 90% of this year's corn, soybean & hay crops, dry lakes, water table gone, water rationing etc. Lousiana? They were busy executing til Katrina: since then they haven't executed anyone & 'caines dwindled off till no storm this year at all! Karma is.

 

[sandandfoam]

Killing is part of how the human mind evolved. Buss (2005) argues that the inclination to murder emanates from deep, unconscious psychological mechanisms. He reports that in one of his studies 91% of men and 84% of women have had a vivid fantasy about murder. He points out that most murderers are sane and he quotes forensic psychologist Dr. Carol Holden "The line between them and us is virtually non-existent". Buss reports that reasons for killing include fear, revenge, status, reputation and the need to get rid of those perceived as inflicting costs. (Sound familiar to any of you death penalty advocates???)
I think those who advocate murder by the state should look in the mirror.
How can you argue murder is wrong if the government does it?
State sponsored murder is headbanger stuff and has no place in the modern world.

 

[McBell]

Now G-d's standing there tapping a syringe in His hand asking 'Which part of 'Thou shalt not kill' did you not understand?

God is the LAST one to be "tapping a syringe in his hand" lest he be the biggest hypocrite of them all.

 

[McBell]

State sponsored murder..

I really love when people use this phrase.
It shows their willingness to be dishonest.

 

[sandandfoam]

I really love when people use this phrase.
It shows their willingness to be dishonest.

Nope. Strapping someone to a table and injecting them with a lethal poison is murder in my view. So is hanging, shooting, beheading and frying people in an electric chair.

 

[sandandfoam]

RE "state sponsored murder"

I really love when people use this phrase.
It shows their willingness to be dishonest.

This photo speaks for itself. I believe it's of a political dissident. Not that it matters if they broke the law :sarcastic

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No justice system is perfect or ever will be perfect. If you think you can come up with one please try.

Minorities are not discriminated against at all. This is since 1976 (when death penalty was reinstated). Info from a anti-death penalty website btw. Deathpenaltyinfo.org

State Total Black White Latino Asian Native Amer.
Alabama 43 21 22 0 0 0
Arizona 23 0 18 4 0 1
Arkansas 27 7 19 1 0 0
California 13 2 8 0 1 2
Colorado 1 0 1 0 0 0
Connecticut 1 0 1 0 0 0
Delaware 14 6 7 0 0 1
Florida 68 21 42 4 0 1
Georgia 45 15 30 0 0 0
Idaho 1 0 1 0 0 0
Illinois 12 5 7 0 0 0
Indiana 19 3 16 0 0 0
Kansas 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kentucky 3 0 3 0 0 0
Louisiana 27 13 14 0 0 0
Maryland 5 3 2 0 0 0
Mississippi 10 3 7 0 0 0
Missouri 67 26 40 0 0 1
Montana 3 0 3 0 0 0
Nebraska 3 2 1 0 0 0
Nevada 12 1 9 1 1 0
New Hampshire 0 0 0 0 0 0
New Jersey 0 0 0 0 0 0
New Mexico 1 0 1 0 0 0
New York 0 0 0 0 0 0
North Carolina 43 13 29 0 0 1
Ohio 32 11 21 0 0 0
Oklahoma 91 26 56 0 2 6
Oregon 2 0 2 0 0 0
Pennsylvania 3 0 3 0 0 0
South Carolina 42 16 26 0 0 0
South Dakota 1 0 1 0 0 0
Tennessee 5 0 5 0 0 0
Texas 439 161 202 72 2 2
Utah 6 2 4 0 0 0
Virginia 103 48 52 2 1 0
Washington 4 0 4 0 0 0
Wyoming 1 0 1 0 0 0
US Gov't 3 1 1 1 0 0
US Military 0 0 0 0 0 0

Totals 1172 Black= 406 White=659 Latino=85 Asian=7 Native American=15

As you can see far more whites have been executed per death penalty than all minorities combined. 659 whites to 513 minorities (combined). If anything the death penalty is discriminating against white people. Considering that homicide rate among black people is 7 times that of whites. File:Homicide offending by race.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Yet more white people are sentenced to death than any other race. More info at Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, for those interested.

Some one can't add up... In no state in the above table were more whites executed than blacks. Yet Your totals show the reverse.

So Much for statistics. and propaganda

 

[McBell]

Nope. Strapping someone to a table and injecting them with a lethal poison is murder in my view. So is hanging, shooting, beheading and frying people in an electric chair.

really?
How about when said action is not only sanctioned by, but required by god?

Is it still murder then?
Does God get to use the ultimate "Get Out Of Jail Free" card?

 

[kai]

really?
How about when said action is not only sanctioned by, but required by god?

Is it still murder then?
Does God get to use the ultimate "Get Out Of Jail Free" card?

How about when said action is not only sanctioned by but required by a little voice in my head. lol

 

[McBell]

How about when said action is not only sanctioned by but required by a little voice in my head. lol

that is what I just asked....

 

[Enoch07]

Some one can't add up... In no state in the above table were more whites executed than blacks. Yet Your totals show the reverse.

So Much for statistics. and propaganda

Feel free to add them up my math is correct +/- 1. The only states where more blacks was executed then whites are.......Maryland and Nebraska. Perhaps you should read more carefully before making accusations. The original numbers come from a anti-death penalty website if you would like to see it here. Race of Death Row Inmates Executed Since 1976 | Death Penalty Information Center.

Now G-d's standing there tapping a syringe in His hand asking 'Which part of 'Thou shalt not kill' did you not understand?

You need to study the Bible a bit more. The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder".........