The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

And billions of copies designed to learn....produce unique souls with unique perspectives....
is not evidence to you the scheme of things?

Then evidence means nothing to you.

You are top of the line life form?...no One greater than you?

Life after death cannot happen and all of these souls crumble into nothing?

Whatever learning occurs is designed for this life, not a future one in a heavenly realm. Such learning would be useless and in the way. In fact, learning gets in the way of spiritual knowledge in this life as well. Yeshu said so when he tried to tell his audience they were mistaken to think they could find eternal life within the scriptures.

What you think of as the 'scheme of things' is still conjecture and belief, not necessarily truth. In other systems, the scheme of things is that you are God hiding within your present form in a cosmic game of Hide and Seek. The difference between your idea of the scheme and the one I presented is that yours cannot be verified until you die, while mine can indeed be verified fully and completely via of a spiritual awakening in this life.

I did not say there was nothing greater than me; I am saying that I (not the egoic self) am of the same essence of that which is greater, just as the drop of water is of the same substance as the greater sea.

'Soul' is also just a concept, as 'self', and "I" are. 'Life after death' occurs in the present moment, not in some future time and place. There is only this eternal present moment, as it has been, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, amen. All you know for certain is that you are here, now. The rest is all conjecture, speculation, and belief. Therefore, the suggestion is that if you are here, now, then you should BE here, now, and not live in the dead past, nor in some imaginary, non-existent future 'life after death'.

 

[godnotgod]

It has nothing to do with what I implied about there being no god.



The deffinition of god, in the general sense, according to the dictionary (check the merriam webster website deffinition of the word god) does not ''represents a reality beyond the mental construct''. It appears the english language does not have a word for ''a reality beyond the mental construct''. There might be a word and I do not know it, but ''god'' does not mean that. You might WANT it to mean that, but it doesn't. I personally think new words need to appear if we want to be clear about these questions, the word ''god'' is used too broadly in my opinion. I'm talking about the creater concept of the word god.

And I honestly dont like this kind of arguing, unless you (personally, you) believe that there IS a god, theres no point arguing semantics.

Finally, if you DO believe in a god, there is absolutely no way I can change your mind, but as long as you are not part of a ''god guided religious entity (Christianity, Islam etc)'' I do not mind so much.

There is the belief in God, and then there is the direct experience of God (ie; 'divine union'). The one is conceptual and in the sphere of orthodoxy, and the other non-conceptual in the sphere of the mystical experience. When the conceptual idea of God is transcended, there is no 'self or other'. God is not an object.

Tas atvam asi

 

[Quagmire]

''God'' is a only a word. Nothing else. It is a result of missinformation. The first individuals who came up with this concept were uneducated (compared to us, of course). It was one of many attempts to answer many questions and turned out to be the most popular one.

edit: i just feel like correcting some grammar sometimes

So which is it: a word or a concept?

 

[Gui10]

So which is it: a word or a concept?

Why ask me this? You know precisely the point I am trying to make but you try to defy it with arguments of language.

God is a 3 letter word. You put the letters G, O and D together and you get the word god. The 3 letters are sub symbols for a greater symbol, the word, made from the combination of letters. This symbol, represents a concept, an image. A concept of a supernatural being.

If you now want to ask me if god is a symbol, a word, or a concept, you can go ahead, but don't exect thought out answer from me, as it is not relevant for the ACTUAL point I'm trying to make. And if you think that by countering my arguments with your futile questions you've ''won'' the debate, I will gladly let you think that and simply tell you that I think you have not ''won'' anything.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The concept of God{s) is not typically constrained by nature, and relies heavily on individual perceptions.
My concept of God differs greatly from the God of many revealed revelations. But neither can be absolutely proven or disproven.
Sure, we can eliminate certain narratives of a deities supposed actions through science and history, but God itself cannot be disproven. How do you disprove something that is inherently outside of nature? It may be highly unlikely, with no objective, empirical evidence, but in my opinion, saying there is absolutely no possibility of a deity is as unreasonable as saying there absolutely is a deity.

 

[godnotgod]

The concept of God{s) is not typically constrained by nature, and relies heavily on individual perceptions.
My concept of God differs greatly from the God of many revealed revelations. But neither can be absolutely proven or disproven.
Sure, we can eliminate certain narratives of a deities supposed actions through science and history, but God itself cannot be disproven. How do you disprove something that is inherently outside of nature? It may be highly unlikely, with no objective, empirical evidence, but in my opinion, saying there is absolutely no possibility of a deity is as unreasonable as saying there absolutely is a deity.

Precisely why the Buddha resolved this issue by stating:

"Think neither god, nor not-god"

This frees the mind to see without duality.

 

[Quagmire]

Why ask me this?

Because it was your post.

You know precisely the point I am trying to make but you try to defy it with arguments of language.

I'm not even convinced that you know the point you were trying to make.

God is a 3 letter word. You put the letters G, O and D together and you get the word god.

uh huh. . .

The 3 letters are sub symbols for a greater symbol, the word, made from the combination of letters. This symbol, represents a concept, an image. A concept of a supernatural being.

Ah, so it isn't just a word.

If you now want to ask me if god is a symbol, a word, or a concept, you can go ahead,

Okie dokie. Is the "God" that you're talking about a symbol, a word, or a concept?

but don't exect thought out answer from me,

No problem there.

as it is not relevant for the ACTUAL point I'm trying to make.

I'll take your word for that.

And if you think that by countering my arguments with your futile questions you've ''won'' the debate,

Considering that you don't seem to have been able to handle the question, I would say I'm ahead so far.

I will gladly let you think that and simply tell you that I think you have not ''won'' anything.

I'm not about winning. I'm about pointing at ignorant statements and going "Hey look everybody!"

 

[Thief]

Whatever learning occurs is designed for this life, not a future one in a heavenly realm. Such learning would be useless and in the way. In fact, learning gets in the way of spiritual knowledge in this life as well. Yeshu said so when he tried to tell his audience they were mistaken to think they could find eternal life within the scriptures.

What you think of as the 'scheme of things' is still conjecture and belief, not necessarily truth. In other systems, the scheme of things is that you are God hiding within your present form in a cosmic game of Hide and Seek. The difference between your idea of the scheme and the one I presented is that yours cannot be verified until you die, while mine can indeed be verified fully and completely via of a spiritual awakening in this life.

I did not say there was nothing greater than me; I am saying that I (not the egoic self) am of the same essence of that which is greater, just as the drop of water is of the same substance as the greater sea.

'Soul' is also just a concept, as 'self', and "I" are. 'Life after death' occurs in the present moment, not in some future time and place. There is only this eternal present moment, as it has been, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, amen. All you know for certain is that you are here, now. The rest is all conjecture, speculation, and belief. Therefore, the suggestion is that if you are here, now, then you should BE here, now, and not live in the dead past, nor in some imaginary, non-existent future 'life after death'.

And all of this is contrary to the obvious scheme of things.
Billions of copies of a device that will produce unique souls.
The design and abundance of occurrence makes God's intent ...obvious.

We are not intended to 'wash out' into the sea.

 

[Gui10]

Okie dokie. Is the "God" that you're talking about a symbol, a word, or a concept?

The ''god'' I am talking about is a concept.
The word ''god'' symbolizes this concept in a way that people who read english can visualize it.

Considering that you don't seem to have been able to handle the question, I would say I'm ahead so far.

Answered. I'm ahead now.

I'm not about winning. I'm about pointing at ignorant statements and going "Hey look everybody!"

So to you, the point of my original statement was wether ''god'' was a word or a concept? You are fetching very deep (sarcasm emoticon here).

 

[Quagmire]

You are fetching

Why thanks.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The ''god'' I am talking about is a concept.
The word ''god'' symbolizes this concept in a way that people who read english can visualize it.

So, you are saying that the "god" you are talking about is your concept that you visualize,...btw, there is no other conscious entity in existence that would visualize 'god' in exactly the same way as you do.

So let's get this straight, as an Atheist you do not believe in the "god" that symbolizes the concept in the way you visualize it.

 

[Gui10]

So, you are saying that the "god" you are talking about is your concept that you visualize,...btw, there is no other conscious entity in existence that would visualize 'god' in exactly the same way as you do.

So let's get this straight, as an Atheist you do not believe in the "god" that symbolizes the concept in the way you visualize it.

Sounds like some of you are having fun busting my balls

But your last sentenced summed it up perfectly, I would not of worded it better myself.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If this means you agree that you first conceptualize a 'god' that you then reject because it is nothing more than a conceptualization, then there's hope for you as there is truly a reality beyond conceptualization, but it's a difficult practice to realize it, it will cost you your ball,...er no I mean ego.

 

[Gui10]

Im really unsure what you mean. I might of been unclear, you might have the wrong deffinition of a concept or I might not know what a concept is but let me try again:

To me, the word god represents an entity who is responsible for the universe.
I do not believe such an entity exists.

Now you must be thinking that I just conceptualized this myself so I must accept it...
You would be wrong.

The words Santa Claus represent this old man with a long beard and long white hair who travels to nice kid's homes' at Christmas to give them presents.
I do not believe such a person exists.

Get me now?

 

[godnotgod]

And all of this is contrary to the obvious scheme of things.

What 'obvious scheme'? You're reading things into reality that aren't there. It's the old idea of saying "Obviously, there MUST be a God.", and that God is usually conceived as having a human-like appearance. We call that 'projection' in psychological circles.

Billions of copies of a device that will produce unique souls.

Excuse me? Device? What do you suppose? That the universe is some sort of mechanism? The Fully Automatic Universe, I suppose, or maybe a Gyrating Stupidity just churning out cookie cutter humanoids.

The design and abundance of occurrence makes God's intent ...obvious.

It does? And what is that 'obvious intent'? You apparently think there is a PURPOSE to life other than itself. I cannot see any such 'obvious intent'. Please show it to me.

We are not intended to 'wash out' into the sea.

Your implication here is that we are somehow insensitively discarded. You are guilty of overshooting what reality actually is.

After you have lived your life as the character you have become, why would God want you to continue as that character? It's over when you die. After all, it is God manifesting you, so why can't God be done with you as you now exist, and why can't you accept that? It is like that part of the drama is over. Stop clinging to who your were, and get to who you are. Then you will never die, because you won't be anyone in particular. Nothing Special, just like everyone else. Just Ordinary God in the flesh. Once you realize that, there is nothing more to desire. Your happiness and fulfillment are at hand, not in some non-existent 'afterlife'.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Im really unsure what you mean. I might of been unclear, you might have the wrong deffinition of a concept or I might not know what a concept is but let me try again:
To me, the word god represents an entity who is responsible for the universe.
I do not believe such an entity exists.

Now you must be thinking that I just conceptualized this myself so I must accept it...
You would be wrong.

The words Santa Claus represent this old man with a long beard and long white hair who travels to nice kid's homes' at Christmas to give them presents.
I do not believe such a person exists.

Get me now?

You are just stating the obvious about concepts, but what about non conceptual reality?

A concept is a thought form, it is a symbol meant to represent something but it is not that something. It has no reality except as a concept.

Now the concept of 'god' is of course just a mental thought form, it is not what it meant to represent.

This is true for ALL concepts,....every concept, word, thought, idea, formula, image, etc., that emanates from the mind of a mortal are merely thought forms,...'cerebral popcorn'!

If there is something real outside of the mind's thinking process, one has to bring about a stillness of the mind to find out. Of course this is a natural occurrence at death, but can it be realized while still alive?

That is the challenge!

 

[Thief]

What 'obvious scheme'? You're reading things into reality that aren't there. It's the old idea of saying "Obviously, there MUST be a God.", and that God is usually conceived as having a human-like appearance. We call that 'projection' in psychological circles.




Excuse me? Device? What do you suppose? That the universe is some sort of mechanism? The Fully Automatic Universe, I suppose, or maybe a Gyrating Stupidity just churning out cookie cutter humanoids.




It does? And what is that 'obvious intent'? You apparently think there is a PURPOSE to life other than itself. I cannot see any such 'obvious intent'. Please show it to me.



Your implication here is that we are somehow insensitively discarded. You are guilty of overshooting what reality actually is.

After you have lived your life as the character you have become, why would God want you to continue as that character? It's over when you die. After all, it is God manifesting you, so why can't God be done with you as you now exist, and why can't you accept that? It is like that part of the drama is over. Stop clinging to who your were, and get to who you are. Then you will never die, because you won't be anyone in particular. Nothing Special, just like everyone else. Just Ordinary God in the flesh. Once you realize that, there is nothing more to desire. Your happiness and fulfillment are at hand, not in some non-existent 'afterlife'.

The questions you ask in this post make it ....obvious.
I've been making discussion way over your head.

You can't follow....or won't.

 

[Thief]

Im really unsure what you mean. I might of been unclear, you might have the wrong deffinition of a concept or I might not know what a concept is but let me try again:

To me, the word god represents an entity who is responsible for the universe.
I do not believe such an entity exists.

Now you must be thinking that I just conceptualized this myself so I must accept it...
You would be wrong.

The words Santa Claus represent this old man with a long beard and long white hair who travels to nice kid's homes' at Christmas to give them presents.
I do not believe such a person exists.

Get me now?

You have not considered....
Take all this back to the singularity.
Now chose....Spirit first or substance.

 

[Curious George]

You have not considered....
Take all this back to the singularity.
Now chose....Spirit first or substance.

I told you the answer to this riddle. Neither.

 

[Daviso452]

You have not considered....
Take all this back to the singularity.
Now chose....Spirit first or substance.

Substance, because I don't even know what you mean by spirit. There must be hundreds of different ways people have described it.