The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

So now you admit the possibility of being a 'person'?

Where is this 'person' you allude to located?

And your awareness sets 'you' apart from others?

That it does is only an illusion. Nothing is separate from anything else. All 'things' are interconnected in a single, universal web, but that is not to say that everything is a single undifferentiated blob of protoplasmic goo.

Before thought, there is consciousness, but it is not a consciousness separate from any other consciousness. It is the mind which creates, via thought, the illusory concept of 'my mind' and 'your mind'.

I know you want me to admit that there is a soul in need of salvation from the cold and clammy grave you so fear. If you can show me the locale of this 'self' that is separate from the God it imagines, then I will be glad to have a discussion with you about it.

 

[Prophet]

If the suffering and misery of others is trivial for you, then you have no understanding of spirituality and your claim to the enlightened state is fraudulent.

Extremely.

Anytime you can support your accusation that my use of possessive language and resulting misunderstanding is causing suffering and misery in a place other than your vivid imagination, you're welcome to give actual debate a try.

 

[Prophet]

Where is this 'person' you allude to located?

That it does is only an illusion. Nothing is separate from anything else. All 'things' are interconnected in a single, universal web, but that is not to say that everything is a single undifferentiated blob of protoplasmic goo.

Before thought, there is consciousness, but it is not a consciousness separate from any other consciousness. It is the mind which creates, via thought, the illusory concept of 'my mind' and 'your mind'.

I know you want me to admit that there is a soul in need of salvation from the cold and clammy grave you so fear. If you can show me the locale of this 'self' that is separate from the God it imagines, then I will be glad to have a discussion with you about it.

If your level of awareness does not set you apart from the lay person, what, then, are your qualifications for informing others on the topic of awareness? Why should anyone want to hear what a quite possibly completely unaware person has to say about the topic of awareness?

Actual knowledge on the topic of awareness would certainly make you an authority, and set you apart in the way that Thief was describing, but you willfully misunderstood him in your favor and used word salad to avoid answering his question because your knowledge is not actual. You recycle the teachings of others and fool yourself into believing you understand while you parrot them badly and do their teachings great injustice by applying them blindly.

 

[godnotgod]

Anytime you can support your accusation that my use of possessive language and resulting misunderstanding is causing suffering and misery in a place other than your vivid imagination, you're welcome to give actual debate a try.

Take a cursory glance at the world and you will see the possessor, the doer, the I, the self, in action, causing misery and suffering wherever he goes. It is the history of the world.

You are chomping at the bit to debate, but I won't give you what you want.

What is it you are looking for, Prophet?

 

[godnotgod]

If your level of awareness does not set you apart from the lay person, what, then, are your qualifications for informing others on the topic of awareness? Why should anyone want to hear what a quite possibly completely unaware person has to say about the topic of awareness?

Higher consciousness is none other than one's ordinary mind. Unlike those who go around parading their 'enlightenment', setting themselves apart, and who think of themselves as 'Something Special', I am no such thing. I am just the Ordinary; Nothing Special. The prisoners in Plato's Cave and the one who escapes to view the Sun have the same, ordinary mind with which to see reality just as it is.

I did not understand Thief's allusion to being 'set apart' in the way you present it, but rather that people are individuals set apart one from each other as souls. The only thing that sets people apart from one another is the mind, which is a self-created principle.

Everyone and everything is already enlightened; it's just that not everyone knows it. That's all.

Actual knowledge on the topic of awareness would certainly make you an authority, and set you apart in the way that Thief was describing,...

I claim no such authority, nor do I set myself apart from anyone or anything, but it certainly appears that YOU do, as you put a sign up to let others know that you are an (officially) 'Enlightened Being'; a 'Prophet' no less. In Japan, this is called 'inka', where purported Zen Masters are awarded a 'Certificate of Enlightenment' (LOL:biglaugh which they hang on the wall behind their desk. So being the Authority on Awareness that you claim to be, perhaps you would like to say a word or two on its behalf. I simply don't have the credentials to make official statements to that effect. All I can do is to eat when hungry, and sleep when tired...and, oh yes, to point to the moon when the occasion to do so arises.

I was not aware I needed credentials and certificates to point to the moon.

... but you willfully misunderstood him in your favor and used word salad to avoid answering his question because your knowledge is not actual.

If it appears that my responses are in my favor, that's because I disagree with Thief's basic point of departure, so everything that follows is flawed. I am sorry you think my responses are word salad, and not concrete, but that is because what we are discussing cannot be pinned down via conceptual thought, and so you see it as paradoxical.

You recycle the teachings of others and fool yourself into believing you understand while you parrot them badly and do their teachings great injustice by applying them blindly.

Everything I post of other's teachings I have taken the time to study and absorb so that I do have an understanding of them.

Now you have made a rather serious accusation here, and I demand that you provide an example to show that you are speaking the truth. You don't KNOW that I do not understand what I replicate of other's teachings. You're just blowing hot air. The important thing is not so much that I understand them, but that YOU do. But once again, I point to the moon, and you attack my pointing finger rather than look to see the moon, and the reason is obvious: you're attached to the pointing finger.

The reason I use other's teachings is because they can state an idea I am trying to get across better than I.

Otherwise, what reason do you suppose I have in doing so?

Now maybe you'd like to step aside and allow Thief to answer for himself. He is perfectly capable, as he has shown himself to be. Why are you stepping in, in his defense? Perhaps you have an ulterior motive, eh?

 

[godnotgod]

More quotes from others about which I know absolutely nothing:

"When an ordinary man gains wisdom, he becomes a sage;
when a sage gains understanding, he becomes an ordinary man"

Unknown source

 

[Thief]

Where is this 'person' you allude to located?

Right between your ears!

That it does is only an illusion. Nothing is separate from anything else. All 'things' are interconnected in a single, universal web, but that is not to say that everything is a single undifferentiated blob of protoplasmic goo.

Before thought, there is consciousness, but it is not a consciousness separate from any other consciousness. It is the mind which creates, via thought, the illusory concept of 'my mind' and 'your mind'.

I know you want me to admit that there is a soul in need of salvation from the cold and clammy grave you so fear. If you can show me the locale of this 'self' that is separate from the God it imagines, then I will be glad to have a discussion with you about it.

You are side stepping the obvious and embracing an illusion.

Your thoughts are your own.
You might SHARE opinion and perspective....but 'you' are 'you'.

Your salvation is not my problem.
And it's not the grave I fear.

 

[godnotgod]

You are side stepping the obvious and embracing an illusion.

By 'obvious' I assume you are referring to what you claim exists as a distinct self 'right between your ears', as you say. So 'YOU' are a chaueffeur that lives inside your head, driving your body around, is that it?

'Hello' in there...yoo...hoo...can I come in and join you for some tea and crumpets?"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAVM_Xk_o9E

Your thoughts are your own.
You might SHARE opinion and perspective....but 'you' are 'you'.

Is that so? And exactly who is that, this 'you', you refer to? Hey, now there are TWO 'you's', LOL; the one 'you' are, and the one that is watching him. How curious. Hey, LOOK! Now there's even a THIRD 'you', the one observing the one observing the first one. Will the real 'YOU' please stand up from the dust?

Your salvation is not my problem.
And it's not the grave I fear.

Then why are you so fixated by death and the grave and salvation?

 

[Thief]

By 'obvious' I assume you are referring to what you claim exists as a distinct self 'right between your ears', as you say. So 'YOU' are a chaueffeur that lives inside your head, driving your body around, is that it?

'Hello' in there...yoo...hoo...can I come in and join you for some tea and crumpets?"



Is that so? And exactly who is that, this 'you', you refer to? Hey, now there are TWO 'you's', LOL; the one 'you' are, and the one that is watching him. How curious. Hey, LOOK! Now there's even a THIRD 'you', the one observing the one observing the first one. Will the real 'YOU' please stand up from the dust?



Then why are you so fixated by death and the grave and salvation?

The last line is the only worthwhile part of your post.

We all die.
I happen to believe in life after death.
This body is such as to form a unique spirit.
It is unreasonable to say 'it is for nothing and results only in dust'.

Believing that my mind and heart continue....
I prepare mind and heart for what I believe lays ahead of that hour....
my last breath.

Fear is not an option.

 

[Prophet]

If everyone is enlightened, than who decides what is enlightened scripture and its correct interpretation? You? On what authority? What knowledge do you have over others that they couldn't get from some book? Your argument says you can't have any more knowledge than they do! Who decides which teachers are giving enlightened teachings? You? On what authority? The authority which your flawed argument says everyone apparently already has?! Fundamentalists tend to go circular when reason fails them.

Here's a clue: If everyone is enlightened already, teaching about it is a waste of time. There would be no gap between your wisdom and theirs. Yet, you teach. This is deep hypocrisy. You see the difference between when I correct you and the vice-versa? I attack your actual meaning. You are not at that level. You are nitpicking about vocabulary.

I'd be surprised if I'm the first person here to note that you are arguing in a circle in a transparent attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. I find it completely beyond the bounds of honesty and reason for you to claim knowledge and disown it at the same time.

 

[Thief]

If everyone is enlightened, than who decides what is enlightened scripture and its correct interpretation? You? On what authority? What knowledge do you have over others that they couldn't get from some book? Your argument says you can't have any more knowledge than they do! Who decides which teachers are giving enlightened teachings? You? On what authority? The authority which your flawed argument says everyone apparently already has?! Fundamentalists tend to go circular when reason fails them.

Here's a clue: If everyone is enlightened already, teaching about it is a waste of time. There would be no gap between your wisdom and theirs. Yet, you teach. This is deep hypocrisy. You see the difference between when I correct you and the vice-versa? I attack your actual meaning. You are not at that level. You are nitpicking about vocabulary.

I'd be surprised if I'm the first person here to note that you are arguing in a circle in a transparent attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. I find it completely beyond the bounds of honesty and reason for you to claim knowledge and disown it at the same time.

I assume you intend this for someone else?

 

[godnotgod]

If everyone is enlightened, than who decides what is enlightened scripture and its correct interpretation? .

Well, sir, if you are enlightened, it means YOU are the authority. If you are the authority, then you are in the position to know precisely what scripture is about, since scripture is merely a secondary account of the first-hand spiritual experience.

Since you don't know that, you cannot be enlightened, as you so claim.

Now pay attention:

Yeshu told his audience that:

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"

New Living Translation (©2007)

You see? Yeshu knew that his listeners had things backwards; that they thought to find the Truth within the written word, rather than within, where he told them to look, ie; 'The Kingdom of God is within'

The living source within everyone is already perfect wisdom; scripture merely points to that, though sometimes poorly.

 

[Thief]

Well, sir, if you are enlightened, it means YOU are the authority. If you are the authority, then you are in the position to know precisely what scripture is about, since scripture is merely a secondary account of the first-hand spiritual experience.

Since you don't know that, you cannot be enlightened, as you so claim.

Now pay attention:

Yeshu told his audience that:

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"

New Living Translation (©2007)

You see? Yeshu knew that his listeners had things backwards; that they thought to find the Truth within the written word, rather than within, where he told them to look, ie; 'The Kingdom of God is within'

ALL authority is held in 'person'.
It is distinctive.... one person from another.

The Kingdom of God has hierarchy.
It's not a 'king'dom without it.

 

[godnotgod]

The last line is the only worthwhile part of your post.

We all die.
I happen to believe in life after death.
This body is such as to form a unique spirit.
It is unreasonable to say 'it is for nothing and results only in dust'.

Believing that my mind and heart continue....
I prepare mind and heart for what I believe lays ahead of that hour....
my last breath.

Fear is not an option.

My point to you all along has been that you believe, but you don't know.

What is important to me about what you believe is not WHAT you believe, but WHY.

 

[godnotgod]

ALL authority is held in 'person'.
It is distinctive.... one person from another.

So you are saying that the finite encapsulates the Infinite? I think it is the other way around, but the ego likes to think itself in control.

The Kingdom of God has hierarchy.
It's not a 'king'dom without it.

The important thing is not that it is a hierarchy, but that it is within.

 

[godnotgod]

The Fiction of the self:

[youtube]OQT6FWOmkOU[/youtube]
The Experience of No Self - YouTube

 

[godnotgod]

What knowledge do you have over others...

None whatsoever.

...that they couldn't get from some book?

They can't get it from a book.

Your argument says you can't have any more knowledge than they do!

You are confusing knowledge with knowing. One might have more knowledge than another, but everyone has the same knowing. The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere.

Who decides which teachers are giving enlightened teachings? You? On what authority? The authority which your flawed argument says everyone apparently already has?! Fundamentalists tend to go circular when reason fails them.

The authority is contained within the teaching itself. The teaching and the understanding occur simultaneously.

Here's a clue: If everyone is enlightened already, teaching about it is a waste of time. There would be no gap between your wisdom and theirs. Yet, you teach.

As I said, everyone is already enlightened, but most have not yet realized it. That is why some of us point to the moon.

If you see pointing to the moon as teaching, then what have you learned?

 

[Prophet]

None whatsoever.

They can't get it from a book.
You are confusing knowledge with knowing. One might have more knowledge than another, but everyone has the same knowing. The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere.

The authority is contained within the teaching itself. The teaching and the understanding occur simultaneously.


As I said, everyone is already enlightened, but most have not yet realized it. That is why some of us point to the moon.

If you see pointing to the moon as teaching, then what have you learned?

I believe that I see clear signs you've mixed up teachings and applied them blindly here.

When talking about Enlightenment from the perspective and vocabulary associated with Self-realization, it is the True Self which always exists beneath the surface waiting to be realized.

Your lack of understanding betrays you as you clearly demonstrate that you think Enlightenment is the Self and that Enlightenment and Self-realization are different things.

The Self is the perfected mind. Both Enlightenment and Self-realization are the attainment of the perfected mind.

Do you think someone who has attained "realization" of the Self should be above this obvious level of gaffe or should we continue to regard his words on the subject as knowledgeable?

 

[Thief]

So you are saying that the finite encapsulates the Infinite? I think it is the other way around, but the ego likes to think itself in control.

The important thing is not that it is a hierarchy, but that it is within.

Still trying to be elusive, I see.

If the kingdom is within (and I might agree to this much)....
Then are 'you' in control?

Or is your Lord in there with 'you'?

No one greater than yourself?
No one but you exists?

Would such condition be illusional?...or delusional?

In other words....are 'you' an intelligent person having a false spiritual experience?
Or someone simply trusting what he has been told?

 

[godnotgod]

I believe that I see clear signs you've mixed up teachings and applied them blindly here.

When talking about Enlightenment from the perspective and vocabulary associated with Self-realization, it is the True Self which always exists beneath the surface waiting to be realized.

Your lack of understanding betrays you as you clearly demonstrate that you think Enlightenment is the Self and that Enlightenment and Self-realization are different things.

The Self is the perfected mind. Both Enlightenment and Self-realization are the attainment of the perfected mind.

I never said or implied any of the above. You're making things up.

Do you think someone who has attained "realization" of the Self should be above this obvious level of gaffe or should we continue to regard his words on the subject as knowledgeable?

There is no attainment of anything, nor anyone who attains it.

"I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment."
-- Gotama Buddha