The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

Still trying to be elusive, I see.

If the kingdom is within (and I might agree to this much)....
Then are 'you' in control?

Or is your Lord in there with 'you'?

No one greater than yourself?
No one but you exists?

Would such condition be illusional?...or delusional?

In other words....are 'you' an intelligent person having a false spiritual experience?
Or someone simply trusting what he has been told?

There is no 'you' that is in control, or not in control. If such an animal exists, will you kindly direct me to where he dwells?

I never said anything about 'greater' or 'not greater'. All I said was that the self is an illusion.

 

[godnotgod]

"The Sixth Patriarch of Zen, Hui-neng... himself in his The Sutra of Hui Neng" (Chapter II, On Prajna) said:

'The wisdom of Enlightenment is inherent in every one of us. It is because of the delusion under which our mind works that we fail to realize it ourselves, and that we have to seek the advice and the guidance of Enlightened ones before we can know our own Essence of Mind. You should know that so far as Buddha-nature is concerned there is no difference in an Enlightened person and an ignorant one. What makes the difference is one realizes it, while the other is ignorant of it.'

"The wisdom of Enlightenment is inherent in every one of us."

From that it is taken that everyone is Enlightened."

ENLIGHTENMENT: can you do it?

 

[Thief]

There is no 'you' that is in control, or not in control. If such an animal exists, will you kindly direct me to where he dwells?

I never said anything about 'greater' or 'not greater'. All I said was that the self is an illusion.

Now go take another look in the mirror.

And superlatives are over your head?

It seems you will go to great length and any play of words.......

 

[godnotgod]

Now go take another look in the mirror.

And superlatives are over your head?

It seems you will go to great length and any play of words.......

My body is not me; my history is not me.

Both come and go, like clouds in the sky.

Neither is an enduring substance I can say is ultimately real.

So can you show me the self you claim will stand up from the dust and walk with the angels? I'd like to have a cup of tea with him.

 

[Thief]

[/color]

My body is not me; my history is not me.

Both come and go, like clouds in the sky.

Neither is an enduring substance I can say is ultimately real.

So can you show me the self you claim will stand up from the dust and walk with the angels? I'd like to have a cup of tea with him. [/color]

Gotta believe you can.
After all of this denial you've made....unlikely.

 

[Prophet]

As I said, everyone is already enlightened, but most have not yet realized it.

This is the doctrine I am referencing when I say that you are demonstrating that you do not know what Enlightenment is. You are clearly separating the Enlightenment and the Self-realization when they are one and the same. You are clearly equating Enlightenment with Self by identifying it as the divine property ever present in all beings.

To make an analogy, a being is in a dark room in which there are objects. When a light is turned on the objects in the room are revealed. When the light is turned back off, the objects in the room are hidden, but still there.

Only a being who has known only darkness would ever reason that the light which revealed the objects in the room actually WAS the objects in the room at the same time. One who has seen light would know that the objects were there all along.

In the same way, only a being who has known only ignorance would ever reason that the Enlightenment which reveals Truth and Self actually IS the Truth and Self at the same time. One who has seen Enlightenment would know that the Truth has been true all along.

 

[godnotgod]

Gotta believe you can.
After all of this denial you've made....unlikely.

Excuse me? Denial of what? All you have presented is a belief that there is an afterlife. One cannot deny what someone else believes because no one knows if it is true or not. All I can say to you is that you don't know if any such afterlife exists. So my position is to pay attention to what we DO know for certain, and that is that we are here, now. That is all. Nothing more; nothing less. Being here, now, we should then BE here, now, rather than live for some conjecture about a future realm we have no idea exists. Everything in this present moment is complete. All it takes is to be at one with it completely, from one moment to the next, without concern for what one imagines is to come. Yeshu made this clear in his Parable of the Lilies of the Field, sometimes referred to as 'The Wisdom of Insecurity':

Matthew 6:25-34
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

What a novel idea: to live in the present where you actually find yourself to be all the time.

 

[godnotgod]

You are clearly separating the Enlightenment and the Self-realization when they are one and the same.

I am doing no such thing.

You are clearly equating Enlightenment with Self by identifying it as the divine property ever present in all beings.

Your first sentence contradicts the second.

I re-post the following:

"The Sixth Patriarch of Zen, Hui-neng... himself in his The Sutra of Hui Neng" (Chapter II, On Prajna) said:

'The wisdom of Enlightenment is inherent in every one of us. It is because of the delusion under which our mind works that we fail to realize it ourselves, and that we have to seek the advice and the guidance of Enlightened ones before we can know our own Essence of Mind. You should know that so far as Buddha-nature is concerned there is no difference in an Enlightened person and an ignorant one. What makes the difference is one realizes it, while the other is ignorant of it.'

"The wisdom of Enlightenment is inherent in every one of us."

From that it is taken that everyone is Enlightened."

http://the-wanderling.com/canudoit.html

 

[Prophet]

Your first sentence contradicts the second.

No, it doesn't. I said that you mistakenly separate Enlightenment and Self-realization, and that you also mistakenly unite Enlightenment and the immortal Self, itself (sans "-realization").

You're making the same mistake again in different words but the exact same meaning.

Only a being who has not known the Self would ever reason that the Self-realization which revealed the Self must be the Self, in itself.

As for the blind application of Scripture you feel intent on reiterating, only a being who has not experienced Enlightenment would equate it to the eternal wisdom it reveals. In addition, it speaks of seeking guidance from Enlightened ones, an idea which would be nonsense if everyone is already Enlightened.

If you are intent on making the same mistake repeatedly, I will be content with using the same analogy repeatedly to defeat you. I highly recommend applying that Scripture in a rational way by seeking out guidance from an Enlightened one who you have the ability to respect.

 

[Thief]

Excuse me? Denial of what? All you have presented is a belief that there is an afterlife. One cannot deny what someone else believes because no one knows if it is true or not. All I can say to you is that you don't know if any such afterlife exists. So my position is to pay attention to what we DO know for certain, and that is that we are here, now. That is all. Nothing more; nothing less. Being here, now, we should then BE here, now, rather than live for some conjecture about a future realm we have no idea exists. Everything in this present moment is complete. All it takes is to be at one with it completely, from one moment to the next, without concern for what one imagines is to come. Yeshu made this clear in his Parable of the Lilies of the Field, sometimes referred to as 'The Wisdom of Insecurity':

Matthew 6:25-34
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

What a novel idea: to live in the present where you actually find yourself to be all the time.

All this talk you make...and then you run right back to the point...
and skip over it.

 

[godnotgod]

All this talk you make...and then you run right back to the point...
and skip over it.

I did'nt skip over it; I zeroed in on it.

But that's beside the point about 'all this talk', which is not just 'all this talk'.

What did I say?

 

[Thief]

What a novel idea: to live in the present where you actually find yourself to be all the time.

You wrote it....you meant it....

 

[godnotgod]

I said that you mistakenly separate Enlightenment and Self-realization...

No, I do not, for the second time. It is you who are mistaken.

As for the...Scripture you feel intent on reiterating, only a being who has not experienced Enlightenment would equate it to the eternal wisdom it reveals. In addition, it speaks of seeking guidance from Enlightened ones, an idea which would be nonsense if everyone is already Enlightened.
[/quote]

They are, but as I have repeatedly indicated, not everyone realizes it, and that is the point of seeking.

You are the one creating divisions here, between the enlightened and the unenlightened. There is no one who is unenlightened who then becomes enlightened. Enlightenment is simply to see things as they are. The seeing of reality as it is is immediate because Enlightenment has always been the case. If we were not already enlightened, we would not be able to see things as they are.

Realization is getting rid of the delusion that you haven't realized.

If we talk of knowing the Self, there must be two Selves, one a knowing Self, another the Self which is known, and the process of knowing. The state we call realization is simply being oneself, not knowing anything or becoming anything. If one is realized, he is that which alone is and which alone has always has been.

Ramana Maharshi
*****

 

[Thief]

No, I do not, for the second time.

They are, but as I have repeatedly indicated, not everyone realizes it, and that is the point of seeking.

So then...not all of us are drops in the ocean?
Some of us are unique?

 

[Prophet]

Is it possible that one who has not realized his Enlightenment could falsely convince himself that he has realized it? Does saying that you understand the Truth make you realize it?

What evidence do you have for your own realization? Just your conflicting interpretations of the teachings of others? What separates you from the fundies here?

 

[godnotgod]

You wrote it....you meant it....

Yes, but I'm not sure what point you are intent on making, unless it is mine.

 

[godnotgod]

...the Scripture you feel intent on reiterating....speaks of seeking guidance from Enlightened ones, an idea which would be nonsense if everyone is already Enlightened.

If you had already realized your own Enlightenment, you would know this to be true.

 

[godnotgod]

Is it possible that one who has not realized his Enlightenment could falsely convince himself that he has realized it? Does saying that you understand the Truth make you realize it?

You mean like unnecessarily posting a notice to everyone that you are an enlightened being means that you are?

What evidence do you have for your own realization?

It leaves no trace.

Just your conflicting interpretations of the teachings of others?

The Truth cannot conflict with itself. The only conflict that exists is within the minds of those who fail to see correctly that no such conflict exists in actuality.

What separates you from the fundies here?

We all live in a Yellow Submarine.

 

[godnotgod]

So then...not all of us are drops in the ocean?
Some of us are unique?

We are all at the same time the same substance manifesting in different ways, just as each unique snowflake is made of the same substance as all the rest.

Uniqueness is not separateness. Each wave on the surface of the ocean is unique, but none at any point in time are ever separated from the ocean itself.

To think that you are separate and must return to the Source is your delusion. To fantasize on some future afterlife in which the self frolics in some heaven is just another form of self-seeking in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

The uniqueness you speak of is an expression of the Absolute Joy of the Divine Essence. Get with it, but don't wait 'til you die; kiss the joy as she flies. That way you will have no regrets, because you will have lived each moment to its fullest.

 

[godnotgod]

The Story of the Wave
By Fa Liang


Once upon a time, there was a little wave. The wave loved being a wave going up and down and playing all day and night. The wave was surrounded by lots of other waves and it had fun watching them, too.

Then one day, the little wave noticed that something seemed to be happening to the waves in front of it. It noticed that it, along with all the other waves, was coming up to something big… the end of the ocean.

The little wave saw a wave in front of it going up, higher and higher. That wave was filled with light and it was as high as it could possibly go (which was the best part of being a wave)… and then it came crashing down and smashed into bits.

The little wave saw another wave in front of it do the same thing… go way up high and then come crashing down.

The little wave saw this and became very afraid.

But, what the little wave didn’t realize yet was that it was water.

The wave was completely made of water! And as water, the wave was never born and it never died. As water, it didn’t smash to bits it simply changed its form, trickled onto the beach, and then rolled right back into the ocean.

Soon, the little wave began going up and up, higher and higher. As it finally rose to the tip-top, about to come crashing down, it saw that the other waves were simply changing form! They changed from waves into spray and drops of water and rolled back into the great ocean, but the whole time, they were still made of water. The little wave realized that it was really water ... and it wasn’t afraid anymore.


The Story of the Wave