The Debate of God.

[Thief]

We are all at the same time the same substance manifesting in different ways, just as each unique snowflake is made of the same substance as all the rest.

Uniqueness is not separateness. Each wave on the surface of the ocean is unique, but none at any point in time are ever separated from the ocean itself.

To think that you are separate and must return to the Source is your delusion. To fantasize on some future afterlife in which the self frolics in some heaven is just another form of self-seeking in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

The uniqueness you speak of is an expression of the Absolute Joy of the Divine Essence. Get with it, but don't wait 'til you die; kiss the joy as she flies. That way you will have no regrets, because you will have lived each moment to its fullest.

False.
Even items that are identical are separate.
Being unique furthers the separation.

 

[Prophet]

How is the realization most effectively reached? Is belief in the realization of Enlightenment all that is required to achieve it, since Enlightenment is already there according to you?

 

[godnotgod]

False.
Even items that are identical are separate.
Being unique furthers the separation.

In order to define what something is as being 'separate', you must refer to that from which it is seemingly 'separate'. That, and the space which interconnects them, are necessary.

Humans are seemingly 'separate' from one another and from their environment, but cannot exist as such without being interconnected to both. Furthermore, humans are not 'persons', in the sense that they are separate entities; they are an interconnected and interacting dynamic process in every respect, in the same sense that there is no such 'thing' as a 'river', but only flowing water instead.

'Thing' and 'separate' are only concepts. They do not exist in reality. The uni-verse is One, not composed of 'separate things' as we imagine.
*****

"So the world doesn't come thinged; it doesn't come evented. You and I are all as much continuous with the physical universe as a wave is continuous with the ocean. The ocean waves, and the universe peoples."

http://wigglesandwaves.blogspot.nl/2004/12/watts-on-wiggles-waves.html

 

[godnotgod]

How is the realization most effectively reached? Is belief in the realization of Enlightenment all that is required to achieve it, since Enlightenment is already there according to you?

No. Belief only takes you further away onto the path of seeking.

There is no distance between realization and Enlightenment itself.

There is no achieving of it, nor anyone who achieves it, since no "I" exists that 'becomes' enlightened.

There is only Enlightenment itself.

 

[SaintAugustine]

God is. The problem has always been our limitations in comprehending the love of God.

 

[Prophet]

No. Belief only takes you further away onto the path of seeking.

This is illogical. Belief causes one to cease seeking. To make an example, a being who believes he has realized the Self would no longer seek it out.

There is no distance between realization and Enlightenment itself.

I could not agree more. My disagreement with you here is that you allow yourself to say things like that and the following at the same time:

As I said, everyone is already enlightened, but most have not yet realized it.

The distance you place between Enlightenment and its realization is apparent to me.

You concurrently hold mutually exclusive beliefs.

 

[godnotgod]

This is illogical. Belief causes one to cease seeking. To make an example, a being who believes he has realized the Self would no longer seek it out.

You initially asked:

Is belief in the realization of Enlightenment all that is required to achieve it?

I understood you to be asking about belief in the doctrine of Enlightenment, as in a belief in God, for example, rather than belief that one has realized it, but I fail to see the possibility that one can believe one has realized Enlightenment; either you know it or you don't, and if you don't, you will constantly be prompted to seek. It is certainty of your Enlightened state beyond a shadow of doubt that causes you to cease seeking, and that can only occur if an authentic enlightenment experience has occurred.

I could not agree more. My disagreement with you here is that you allow yourself to say things like that and the following at the same time:

The distance you place between Enlightenment and its realization is apparent to me.

You concurrently hold mutually exclusive beliefs.

If there is no distance between the realization of enlightenment (which means you previously were unaware of it), and Enlightenment itself, that means Enlightenment was already the case, only that you failed to see it. Therefore:

Everyone is already enlightened.

 

[Thief]

In order to define what something is as being 'separate', you must refer to that from which it is seemingly 'separate'. That, and the space which interconnects them, are necessary.

Humans are seemingly 'separate' from one another and from their environment, but cannot exist as such without being interconnected to both. Furthermore, humans are not 'persons', in the sense that they are separate entities; they are an interconnected and interacting dynamic process in every respect, in the same sense that there is no such 'thing' as a 'river', but only flowing water instead.

'Thing' and 'separate' are only concepts. They do not exist in reality. The uni-verse is One, not composed of 'separate things' as we imagine.
*****

"So the world doesn't come thinged; it doesn't come evented. You and I are all as much continuous with the physical universe as a wave is continuous with the ocean. The ocean waves, and the universe peoples."

And you call me delusional.....

First you say the space in between is necessary...and then you preach one with all.

You do realize you are redefining every word in the English language to suit your speech?

We are separate.
And we will remain that way into the afterlife.
That we hang out together....doesn't make us 'waves in the ocean'.

 

[Prophet]

I give up for now.

 

[godnotgod]

First you say the space in between is necessary...and then you preach one with all.

Why do you see the two as contradictory?

We are separate.
And we will remain that way into the afterlife.

How do you know that you are 'separate'?

How do you know there is an 'afterlife'?

 

[Thief]

How do you know that you are 'separate'?

I'm not the guy with a lengthy discussion about being 'one with everything'.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm not the guy with a lengthy discussion about being 'one with everything'.

Excuse me, but this is not about my view. You live in what is called a 'uni-verse', which means that every-thing is unified into a single whole. Or do you not understand the nature of the world you live in?

You imagine yourself to be a separate ego acting upon the world, one that goes to its heavenly reward in an afterlife. That is how the ego operates: it does everything under the Sun to perpetuate its false existence, even convincing you that everything it demands is real. That it is set apart from other egos as deserving of reward, while they, of course, are deserving of punishment. It is the ultimate game of spiritual one-upsmanship, a game which places itself in an imaginary circle of the chosen and the special.

 

[godnotgod]

The idea that everyone is already enlightened but some do not realize it can be partially illustrated with the metaphor of a fish born into the sea. He has been in the sea from the beginning, but does not know it.

 

[Thief]

Excuse me, but this is not about my view. You live in what is called a 'uni-verse', which means that every-thing is unified into a single whole. Or do you not understand the nature of the world you live in?

You imagine yourself to be a separate ego acting upon the world, one that goes to its heavenly reward in an afterlife. That is how the ego operates: it does everything under the Sun to perpetuate its false existence, even convincing you that everything it demands is real. That it is set apart from other egos as deserving of reward, while they, of course, are deserving of punishment. It is the ultimate game of spiritual one-upsmanship, a game which places itself in an imaginary circle of the chosen and the special.

You've been posting as if it is.

There's not much point in the creation of Man if his spirit fails to survive the last breath.

 

[godnotgod]

You've been posting as if it is.

If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I repeatedly have stated that Enlightenment is Nothing Special and available to all. It is not an exclusivist club where only a few are 'chosen' while the vast majority are condemned. If Enlightenment is available to all, then it is a UNIVERSAL view, not a personal one.

There's not much point in the creation of Man if his spirit fails to survive the last breath.

The 'point', Thief, is in the experience of Man in the Present, not in the past or some imaginary future, just as the point of each individual and unique snowflake is in its present manifestation. Life in the Present is the delight of their existence. To go on forever in their present form and manifestation would be a living death. Dance the dance of life now and don't worry about 'death'.

The 'last breath' means nothing if Man does not live each breath consciously now.

If you take a closer look, you will find that 'your' breath is not your own. While the swinging door that is the breath may cease at death, the consciousness it is about is the consciousness of the Infinite.

 

[idav]

You've been posting as if it is.

There's not much point in the creation of Man if his spirit fails to survive the last breath.

Would make this life that more precious but besides that matter and energy do not just fail, it will survive.

 

[Thief]

Would make this life that more precious but besides that matter and energy do not just fail, it will survive.

Your crossing chemistry with spirit....and that's good.
The chemistry will fail....and become dead.

The spirit...having the will to live...might go on.

 

[idav]

Your crossing chemistry with spirit....and that's good.
The chemistry will fail....and become dead.

The spirit...having the will to live...might go on.

Matter and energy are just different forms of each other. Chemistry doesn't just fail.

 

[KeeperofSecrets]

Just believing in god DOESN'T make him real. this idea that god is there if you believe in him is nothing more than a lie that was designed to create a feeling of emptiness when people try to leave a faith

Actually I think that those trying to convert others to their way of thinking are the ones trying to create something to fill the void. You know! If you don't feel the same way as I do than your lost or need guidance type attitudes.

Personally , weather your a believer or not, most people have to agree there is a creation and there fore there is a creator.

 

[KeeperofSecrets]

Excuse me, but this is not about my view. You live in what is called a 'uni-verse', which means that every-thing is unified into a single whole. Or do you not understand the nature of the world you live in?

You imagine yourself to be a separate ego acting upon the world, one that goes to its heavenly reward in an afterlife. That is how the ego operates: it does everything under the Sun to perpetuate its false existence, even convincing you that everything it demands is real. That it is set apart from other egos as deserving of reward, while they, of course, are deserving of punishment. It is the ultimate game of spiritual one-upsmanship, a game which places itself in an imaginary circle of the chosen and the special.

Hmmm false ego's. LOL! I really liked what your saying. However my own belief in a creator does not seperate anything but connects it to a oneness. Meaning that even the dirt is special. Is that what you are trying to protray?