The Debate of God.

[Daviso452]

err......God perchance?

That's a circular argument, you do realize that?

You act as though it is common knowledge, when it is obviously not.

But seriously. Do you believe because God has spoken to you? Has God ever contacted you? What is your reason?

 

[Daviso452]

God dammit I think he's ignoring me.

 

[The Wizard]

also most atheists and the like tend to believe they are entitled to scientific proof , evidence , sources etc.. to prove the existence of God.

questions like - 'can you provide empirical evidence to support your claim of God' etc.. so utterly banal and pointless.

If an atheist can come up with a better idea for our existence I am all ears, but the usual old 'we are because of the laws of physics' etc.. just doesn't cut it.

Well, there's always another thing for which the common atheist screws up on concerning religion or the beliefs of a god or Divinity. Once you realize it you will see that all they do is assert a strawman and false logical premise when requesting proof. When asking for proof of God they are literally expecting a tree to turn into a rock. Religion and beliefs are part of a belief system. The affects are evident by what that belief system produces in life or reality. A belief system does not require so called evidence to be considered rational or logical. Its a belief system, by its very meaning, therefore why would anyone require knowledge, evidence or proof that somehow a particular object of belief should also exist in physical meat space... its just a strawman arguement... not even worth debating... imo.

 

[Daviso452]

Well, there's always another thing for which the common atheist screws up on concerning religion or the beliefs of a god or Divinity. Once you realize it you will see that all they do is assert a strawman and false logical premise when requesting proof. When asking for proof of God they are literally expecting a tree to turn into a rock. Religion and beliefs are part of a belief system. The affects are evident by what that belief system produces in life or reality. A belief system does not require so called evidence to be considered rational or logical. Its a belief system, by its very meaning, therefore why would anyone require knowledge, evidence or proof that somehow a particular object of belief should also exist in physical meat space... its just a strawman arguement... not even worth debating... imo.

From what I can gather you are stating that a person requires no reason to believe in something, and to believe based on faith is rational.

When asking for proof we want something that cannot be explained without God, and so far no religion has given anything of the sort.

We set up a "straw man" argument because we are of the belief that things that are real can be proven. How else would you know they are real?

 

[The Wizard]

So you do not think people should be rational in believing something?

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about... just another misinterpreted reply.. If a belief does nothing to enrich my life then I have no use for its importation. Never-the-less, I cannot say it will be rational for others... I dont have the ego to claim such nonsense...

 

[Daviso452]

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about... just another misinterpreted reply.. If a belief does nothing to enrich my life then I have no use for its importation. Never-the-less, I cannot say it will be rational for others... I dont have the ego to claim such nonsense...

I re-wrote my reply. Thought I had too much sarcasm in it. Trying not to do that.

 

[nnmartin]

God dammit I think he's ignoring me.

not ignoring but I have already answered that question.

I feel God within myself and also present in nature.

 

[Daviso452]

not ignoring but I have already answered that question.

I feel God within myself and also present in nature.

But then my question still remains; how do you know what you feel is God? How do you know what you feel is true, and everyone else of every other faith is not actually connecting with their own deity?

How do you know what you felt isn't some biological programming giving you that feeling?

 

[nnmartin]

All these kind of questions will come up with the same answer.

Definitive proof cannot be given for either side of the debate.

God may well exist - that is enough.

 

[A-ManESL]

The saints/holy men and women of God tell us that God exists but you need to have knowledge to "understand" the proof. There are many ways of getting this knowledge, which are the various ways of treading the spiritual path. It is useless to try and present proofs where neither the questioner nor the answerer have that knowledge. In the meantime some people believe in God anyway without bothering about the proof to satisfy the voidness they feel from a superficial/mechanical life.

Take a look here for what a Hindu holy man said regarding knowledge of God and how to acquire it.

 

[Daviso452]

All these kind of questions will come up with the same answer.

Definitive proof cannot be given for either side of the debate.

God may well exist - that is enough.

One final question and I am done; do you agree that your reason for believing in god, which consists of believing a single possibility, void of evidence, instead of many other possibilities, which are supported by evidence, is purely faith?

I want your most honest answer. Either way, I shall stop asking from here on out.

 

[Daviso452]

The saints/holy men and women of God tell us that God exists but you need to have knowledge to "understand" the proof. There are many ways of getting this knowledge, which are the various ways of treading the spiritual path. It is useless to try and present proofs where neither the questioner nor the answerer have that knowledge. In the meantime some people believe in God anyway without bothering about the proof to satisfy the voidness they feel from a superficial/mechanical life.

Take a look here for what a Hindu holy man said regarding knowledge of God and how to acquire it.

Allow me to reverse this a bit; since you appear to have this knowledge, what proves to you God exists?

 

[nnmartin]

Like I said, it's more of a feeling within and of oneness with nature etc.. this is stronger to me than faith.

Regardless of any traditional religion, spiritual movement or New Age system I do believe there is something 'out there' that would be considered God.

 

[A-ManESL]

Allow me to reverse this a bit; since you appear to have this knowledge, what proves to you God exists?

You missed the point. To explain this proof you would have to tread the spiritual path in a particular way. This is the initial step which is a necessary prelude to understanding this proof. And, by the by, the proof varies as you change the particular way to another particular way. As for me personally, my own way is through following the way of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I have only a flimsy knowledge, but if you want I can tell you what to do to get started on this path.

By the way I think I made a mistake in the previous comment; it should be obvious to you that for the proof to be presented properly and to make sense to the listener both the questioner and the answerer should be possess a certain degree of initial knowledge. I doubt a nursery student will understand if I explain to him the proof of the Hales Jewett theorem.

Regards

 

[nnmartin]

good answer.

It all starts to make sense when you begin reading and studying religious texts, spiritual systems and concepts etc....

The scientific or psychological method is just the wrong approach to understanding

 

[Daviso452]

You missed the point. To explain this proof you would have to tread the spiritual path in a particular way. This is the initial step which is a necessary prelude to understanding this proof. And, by the by, the proof varies as you change the particular way to another particular way. As for me personally, my own way is through following the way of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I have only a flimsy knowledge, but if you want I can tell you what to do to get started on this path.

By the way I think I made a mistake in the previous comment; it should be obvious to you that for the proof to be presented properly and to make sense to the listener both the questioner and the answerer should be possess a certain degree of initial knowledge. I doubt a nursery student will understand if I explain to him the proof of the Hales Jewett theorem.

Regards

One large hole in that thing is that I have. But just not the same GOD you want me to hear. I hear nature; and I hear the god of Ra from egyptian mythology. I've never actually spoken to such a deity, however. But I feel a pull to this god. And I feel a pull to many spiritualistic beliefs. They seem to be screaming at me, but I do not listen. Why? Because of people like you.

You tell me to listen for your god. You tell me if I listen I find your deity. And I don't doubt that you hear something. But then which of us is hearing the right person? Then I add in the faults of human nature and instinct, and I realize neither of us.

And it isn't just me either. Every other faith hears its own deity. I've heard from many that they are just hearing "false gods." What right do they have to say that? Perhaps they are the ones listening to a false god? Then they say, "because god is pure, and never lies," but doesn't everyone else believe that about their own deities? What makes your god so special? But from there, the conversation spirals downward in a slurry of disagreement.

But the point is, no one has ever given me a better answer than, "because god does not lie, because it says so in the bible." I ask you, should I listen to these "spirits" I sense? If I ask, will they respond?

 

[Daviso452]

Like I said, it's more of a feeling within and of oneness with nature etc.. this is stronger to me than faith.

Regardless of any traditional religion, spiritual movement or New Age system I do believe there is something 'out there' that would be considered God.

A feeling you cannot prove to actually be real is faith. Sorry. If you cannot realize that you are truly ignorant about yourself. You are not special, Martin. Just because you think what you feel is true, does not mean what everyone else feels is false.

I do not expect a response to this, so please just read and move on.

 

[The Wizard]

One large hole in that thing is that I have. But just not the same GOD you want me to hear. I hear nature; and I hear the god of Ra from egyptian mythology. I've never actually spoken to such a deity, however. But I feel a pull to this god. And I feel a pull to many spiritualistic beliefs. They seem to be screaming at me, but I do not listen. Why? Because of people like you.

You tell me to listen for your god. You tell me if I listen I find your deity. And I don't doubt that you hear something. But then which of us is hearing the right person? Then I add in the faults of human nature and instinct, and I realize neither of us.

And it isn't just me either. Every other faith hears its own deity. I've heard from many that they are just hearing "false gods." What right do they have to say that? Perhaps they are the ones listening to a false god? Then they say, "because god is pure, and never lies," but doesn't everyone else believe that about their own deities? What makes your god so special? But from there, the conversation spirals downward in a slurry of disagreement.

But the point is, no one has ever given me a better answer than, "because god does not lie, because it says so in the bible." I ask you, should I listen to these "spirits" I sense? If I ask, will they respond?

To suggest a great work, Daviso, regarding listening for a god or voice. I would reckomend Julian Janes, Origan of Concsiousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. In primative times our guidence system turned into a type of audio hullucination, which then instructed us. That commanding voice became a god. There was no way to get it out of your head. Skitzophrenics are people who still have a high degree of the condition... Anyway, that book is very valuable for putting the rest of the pieces together.... imo.

 

[Daviso452]

To suggest a great work, Daviso, regarding listening for a god or voice. I would reckomend Julian Janes, Origan of Concsiousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. In primative times our guidence system turned into a type of audio hullucination, which then instructed us. That commanding voice became a god. There was no way to get it out of your head. Skitzophrenics are people who still have a high degree of the condition... Anyway, that book is very valuable for putting the rest of the pieces together.... imo.

You believe that all people have this voice speaking to them? I suppose I wasn't being as truthful/clear as I should have; I never heard a "voice" per se, but rather it felt right to consider each thing I touched as having some sort of spirit. It felt right that crystals had magic powers. That the universe could be manipulated. And oh how good it felt to think of the multiple gods of the world.

But those feelings are gone now. My wishing for these beings to be true conflicted with my rational reasoning. I abandoned them, for I valued my ability to reason more. I still have a lingering sense though; I crave for a "totem," not one like a totem pole, but a wooden figurine which I could look at and say that this object represents me, and shall give me good luck. I still look, so that I may sate this.

But, I never truly "heard" a god or gods. I just felt an amazing pull to them and found happy imagining them real. But the internal conflict was not worth it. I hear no voice telling me what is right and wrong. I hear only myself, and my rational reasoning asking whether it is worth it or not. If it comes at another's expense, it usually isn't worth it.

But I am still curious as to why this Julian reasoned that schizophrenics hear God more loudly than the rest of us. Not to seem lazy, but I would hope to keep this conversation going, and I doubt I have enough time to go out, purchase, and read an entire book that quickly.

 

[The Wizard]

You believe that all people have this voice speaking to them? I suppose I wasn't being as truthful/clear as I should have; I never heard a "voice" per se, but rather it felt right to consider each thing I touched as having some sort of spirit. It felt right that crystals had magic powers. That the universe could be manipulated. And oh how good it felt to think of the multiple gods of the world.

But those feelings are gone now. My wishing for these beings to be true conflicted with my rational reasoning. I abandoned them, for I valued my ability to reason more. I still have a lingering sense though; I crave for a "totem," not one like a totem pole, but a wooden figurine which I could look at and say that this object represents me, and shall give me good luck. I still look, so that I may sate this.

But, I never truly "heard" a god or gods. I just felt an amazing pull to them and found happy imagining them real. But the internal conflict was not worth it. I hear no voice telling me what is right and wrong. I hear only myself, and my rational reasoning asking whether it is worth it or not. If it comes at another's expense, it usually isn't worth it.

But I am still curious as to why this Julian reasoned that schizophrenics hear God more loudly than the rest of us. Not to seem lazy, but I would hope to keep this conversation going, and I doubt I have enough time to go out, purchase, and read an entire book that quickly.

oh, well, at least I thought I could reckomend some interesting material for all shades of people out there...