The Debate of God.

[Heathen Hammer]

I am sure we could easily prove that the Spaghetti Monster, Pastafarian religion was nonsense though.

for a start we can actually see and test spaghetti for real in a laboratory - you can't do that with a God.

That is merely testing a material icon.
We can do the same with a cross or a communion wafer.

 

[nnmartin]

not created He was, but ever He lives, through the glory of spaghetti, now and forever. R'Amen.”

This extract would indicate that the Pasta God abides within actual spaghetti.

The Christian God is never made out to be within a crucifix or wafer - which are only meant to be symbols.

Not that Pastafarianism is supposed to be serious but I doubt it would stand up to much theological enquiry.

Therefore it doesn't have great value as an analogy.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Actually we can argue that Jesus IS supposed to reside in the wafers and wine. Transubstantiation and all that. Depends what schism you're a member of.
And the extract says he lives through the glory of spaghetti. It doesn't say anything about residing within spaghetti. In fact, the same empty prose is used to describe God the same way.

 

[nnmartin]

well I see this could descend into a futile never-ending semantics debate pretty quickly, so I think we should just stop now

of course, ravioli would make an interesting case - the outer shell and the inner meat could be highly symbolic..........

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Heretic! It is filled with cheese! Meat is unclean!


Heehee!

 

[rusra02]

I am simply going to use this thread as a means to discuss the existence of God with anyone. I am constantly discussing this with people, and feel I should have a main thread to post on.

If anyone wishes to argue that god (or whatever deity you believe in) is true, I have questions ready. Thank you.

There is only one true God, the God of the Bible, Jehovah. He says of himself:
"I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying,'My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do;" (Isaiah 46:9,10)

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[Daviso452]

There is only one true God, the God of the Bible, Jehovah. He says of himself:
"I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying,'My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do;" (Isaiah 46:9,10)

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Unless God is a concept created by man and the bible is merely a collection of myths. You are assuming that the bible is divine and is true. You must prove it is first.

 

[Daviso452]

I'll have a look at those links in due course.

but for now the first thing that comes to mind is 'why did the first tribe have a supernatural belief' - that doesn't fit in with the psychological evolution theory that you seem to be making.

How do you explain that one?

People were searching for answers. They did not have the advanced methods and technology we have today. To explain the world, they needed deities.

In the early years of civilization, and perhaps in a few groups today, many hallucinatory drugs were thought to give people vision into another world. Shamans and tribal priests used these and explained the world around them using these drugs.

But a major factor is the fact that we humans are pattern seekers. We try to a connection when there often is none. When ancient tribal cultures could use these deities to explain the world. In the movie, Apocalypto, mayans were sacrificing people to their gods. Then, an eclipse occured, and the priest took this as a sign the gods were pleased.

The fact is that nowadays we no why the eclipse happens. Why it rains. Why there are mountains. Why the tides come in and out. Why the sun sets and rises. So we do not need God anymore.

 

[Daviso452]

Anyway, I have a question for a guy I invited to this thread.

Scott, why do you believe in God? Do you believe in him because he is with you? Does the universe not make sense without God? Do you believe in him because you have evidence he exists? Do you believe merely through faith? Please share.

 

[nnmartin]

In the early years of civilization, and perhaps in a few groups today, many hallucinatory drugs were thought to give people vision into another world. Shamans and tribal priests used these and explained the world around them using these drugs.

Perhaps they do give you visions into other worlds though.

Why did God/Earth Goddess put these kind of magical plants there in the first place?

The fact is that nowadays we no why the eclipse happens. Why it rains. Why there are mountains. Why the tides come in and out. Why the sun sets and rises. So we do not need God anymore.

All that we really know now is basic science that explains the physical cause of things as we see it.

That is no reason to say we no longer need God.

The basic physical cause is just the tip of the iceberg as far as God and the Divine Plane are concerned.

 

[Daviso452]

Perhaps they do give you visions into other worlds though.

Why did God/Earth Goddess put these kind of magical plants there in the first place?

You are assuming that god/earth Goddess exist. You must first prove their existence before saying they caused something.

All that we really know now is basic science that explains the physical cause of things as we see it.

That is no reason to say we no longer need God.

The basic physical cause is just the tip of the iceberg as far as God and the Divine Plane are concerned.

But you still have not shown they exist. True, it does not explain them away. My point in all this is that perhaps what you felt in your teens was not really some deity but instead your brain responding the way it was programmed to respond. Do you agree this is a possibility?

 

[nnmartin]

do you realise that you have quoted yourself by mistake?

he he - seems that you are now a believer in God and Goddess yourself!

glad I mangaged to convert you so quickly.........

 

[nnmartin]

as for evolution.

I don't believe it has the power to make psychological, emotional or social changes in the way you are espousing.

 

[nnmartin]

I heard this study a while back:
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph
and
Why we are born to believe in God: It's wired into the brain, says psychologist | Mail Online
Basically, children are born with a predisposition to believe in God. Neither of these gives an explanation though. Why do you think, Martin?

From the first link I'll stand by my previous thought that although children may well believe in fairies and the like that is no reason to say that God (or even fairies) do not exist.

It also does not explain why these beliefs do not just 'go away' during maturation into adult - often they get stronger.

As for the second link here is a gem:

Another experiment involved asking subjects to cut up a treasured photograph. When his team then measured their sweat production - which is what lie-detector tests monitor - there was a jump in the reading. This did not occur when destroying an object of less sentimental significance.

'This shows how superstition is hardwired into our brains,' he added.

Surely that is non-sequitir if ever there was one!

How about the people were just sweating because they felt ashamed in destroying a valuable picture?

so to sum up I'd have to say that your links have not managed to convert me into an Atheist.

 

[Daviso452]

Weird. Somehow there was a second duplicate

that was under my name. Fixed it though. It was from you.

Anyway, why not? I bet you do it all the time. Whenever you go to a place of different customs, do you not respect and act accordingly? Otherwise you are being rude. It's like adopting an accent, or attending certain festivals. And it is stuff like that that lead to evolution. If your generations had the same accent long enough then soon it will become genetic, which I believe it is, to an extent.

 

[nnmartin]

you are not born with any sort of accent though - this is learned behaviour.

Nothing to do with evolution or genetics.

The science boys (and girls) would have you for breakfast if you made this sort of claim in the other sections!

 

[Daviso452]

From the first link I'll stand by my previous thought that although children may well believe in fairies and the like that is no reason to say that God (or even fairies) do not exist.

It also does not explain why these beliefs do not just 'go away' during maturation into adult - often they get stronger.

As for the second link here is a gem:

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Surely that is non-sequitir if ever there was one!

How about the people were just sweating because they felt ashamed in destroying a valuable picture.

by the way - The Daily Mail newspaper is a trashy tabloid that just loves churning out this sort of dross.


so basically, your links have not managed to convert me into an Atheist.

I'll agree with the second link. I was trying to find multiple sources of the test. Guess I should have checked what I was doing. That's my Bad.

However, if something is programmed into someone's mind, it won't just go away. It's not something you grow out of. You can train your mind to ignore it, but if you didn't even know it was false in the first place, then it will grow stronger and soon you will believe in it without a doubt.

At that point, there is little chance that the person would be able to believe anything else. Their minds do what they can to hold on to what they believe. To break someone from that can and has caused depression in many people. I wouldn't doubt it if some have committed suicide because they broke from their faith. But it depends on the person.

But back to what I was saying, it's like instinct. And if you are taught to use it, then it is hard to stop. You can grow out of it, but it requires training.

 

[nnmartin]

The psychological angle is far better and more interesting than the scientific one I'll grant you that.

It's agreed now I'm sure that scientific logic regarding God does not really lead anywhere - ie: God cannot be proved or disproved.

However I have a feeling that we will just end up at the same impasse with this new approach.

ie: It could easily be said that man has a psychological need for relgion but did God put that need in there?

Can this really be explained away by evolution and brain waves?

Do animals believe in God?

How about philosophy, where does that come into the picture?

any ideas?

 

[Daviso452]

The psychological angle is far better and more interesting than the scientific one I'll grant you that.

It's agreed now I'm sure that scientific logic regarding God does not really lead anywhere - ie: God cannot be proved or disproved.

However I have a feeling that we will just end up at the same impasse with this new approach.

ie: It could easily be said that man has a psychological need for relgion but did God put that need in there?

Can this really be explained away by evolution and brain waves?

Do animals believe in God?

How about philosophy, where does that come into the picture?

any ideas?

The main question I have been hinting at is why do you believe in God? What proves to you, personally, not anyone else, just YOU, that there is indeed a God. Every sentence you seem to make is with a certainty that God exists. Where does that certainty come from?

 

[nnmartin]

err......God perchance?