The Debate of God.

[The Sum of Awe]

All that exists is physical, or is based of something that is physical.

 

[apophenia]

Reaction to stimuli is sufficient for determining awareness. Life is reacting to stimuli. At what point do you thing reacting to stimuli becomes awareness? Aren't plant cells aware?

Since all matter in complexity can become aware then a computer is just as a aware as a plant or amoeba at the least. What difference is there in life from regular matter really?

All matter in complexity can become aware ?

What is the basis of that assertion ?

Give me examples any scientific evidence or research.

AI is not evidence, it is only evidence that we can simulate particular forms of behavior . Such behaviour neither requires nor is evidence of awareness.

 

[idav]

All matter in complexity can become aware ?

What is the basis of that assertion ?

Give me examples any scientific evidence or research.

The hurdle is showing abiogenesis. Matter to life. If everything has evolved from simpler elements then why not machinery?

AI is not evidence, it is only evidence that we can simulate particular forms of behavior . Such behaviour neither requires nor is evidence of awareness.

I'm not talking about AI but something more basic. Just basic reaction to stimuli maybe to the level of what one cell does which is complex enough.

 

[apophenia]

Well, even granting that you are aware, proving awareness is ultimately impossible. There is no objective test that can be done to verify awareness.

Nonetheless, let's say you have a computer that is programmed to respond that it is aware of itself as an individual. How would you prove it is not? Would the computer know that it is not really aware when everything in its programming is telling it that it is?

Prove ?

Firstly if you need scientific proof that you are aware then I guess you value your logic above your immediate experience, and that's that.

Regarding the computer, the point is that every aspect if it's behaviour can be attributed to the hardware and software. It is a totally understandable system whose behaviour can be accounted for. It would make as much sense to suggest that your surround sound system is aware of the music.

 

[apophenia]

The hurdle is showing abiogenesis. Matter to life. If everything has evolved from simpler elements then why not machinery?

I'm not talking about AI but something more basic. Just basic reaction to stimuli maybe to the level of what one cell does which is complex enough.

And your example is ?

 

[idav]

And your example is ?

When I send a command to a software it is just like our brain sending a signal. When the software reacts to something I sent it, that is reaction to stimuli. Just the same as a plant that moves towards the sun or releases poison when it is attacked. That is advanced programming with the DNA as the instruction code.

 

[outhouse]

All this could have happened and be fully functioning, including these bodies with their names and preferences and behaviours, without any self-awareness at all

this doesnt make a bit of sense at all. fact is we know it happened just the opposite of your statement.

In other words, consciousness is not merely complex behaviour. It also includes the feature of knowing, or being.

know or being is a perception based on knowledge gained from birth.

Nowhere in this description is self-awareness required, defined, or in any way accounted for.

this is a biological feature of a mammal, so your wrong it is accounted for.

Awareness per se has no mass or energy, fits no equations, is not explained by any theory, and yet is absolutely self-evident right NOW.

false.

it is a brain function you dont understand.

 

[apophenia]

When I send a command to a software it is just like our brain sending a signal. When the software reacts to something I sent it, that is reaction to stimuli. Just the same as a plant that moves towards the sun or releases poison when it is attacked. That is advanced programming with the DNA as the instruction code.

I have designed and programed microcomputer systems do I am quite clear about what they are physically, and precisely how they function.

There is no reason whatever, except perhaps the maintenance of a metaphor, to suggest that firmware knows it exists the way you and I do.

My point BTW is not a challenge or refutation of abiogenesis orB evolution.
It is merely the observation that those processes neither require, define or account for awareness in the sense of the experience of knowing we exist.

In other words, awareness is not within the purview of scientific knowledge.

 

[idav]

I have designed and programed microcomputer systems do I am quite clear about what they are physically, and precisely how they function.

There is no reason whatever, except perhaps the maintenance of a metaphor, to suggest that firmware knows it exists the way you and I do.

My point BTW is not a challenge or refutation of abiogenesis orB evolution.
It is merely the observation that those processes neither require, define or account for awareness in the sense of the experience of knowing we exist.

In other words, awareness is not within the purview of scientific knowledge.

I didn't suggest firmare knows of its existance the way you and I do. I suggested they are as aware as perhaps a single cell. We are nothing if it weren't for a multitude of cells interacting as a single network.

 

[apophenia]

this doesnt make a bit of sense at all. fact is we know it happened just the opposite of your statement.



know or being is a perception based on knowledge gained from birth.




this is a biological feature of a mammal, so your wrong it is accounted for.




false.

it is a brain function you dont understand.

No. Complex behaviour is explained by abiogenesis/evolution.


Awareness is not explained , defined nor necessary to explain behaviour in modern scientific terms.

I don't think you are clear about what I mean by awareness.

No big deal. Adherents if the current scientific paradigm have a blind spot about this.

 

[apophenia]

I d

idn't suggest firmare knows of its existance the way you and I do. I suggested they are as aware as perhaps a single cell. We are nothing if it weren't for a multitude of cells interacting as a single network.

You are not talking about awareness, you are talking about simple physical connectedness plus cause and effect resulting in some particular behaviour of the system.

 

[Tiberius]

Reaction to stimuli is sufficient for determining awareness. Life is reacting to stimuli. At what point do you thing reacting to stimuli becomes awareness? Aren't plant cells aware?

Since all matter in complexity can become aware then a computer is just as a aware as a plant or amoeba at the least. What difference is there in life from regular matter really?

You're kidding, right? By that logic, the sensor on an alarm system is aware!

Prove ?

Firstly if you need scientific proof that you are aware then I guess you value your logic above your immediate experience, and that's that.

This doesn't answer my question. How can I be sure that I am not a computer that is programmed to only think it is aware but is not really aware?

Regarding the computer, the point is that every aspect if it's behaviour can be attributed to the hardware and software. It is a totally understandable system whose behaviour can be accounted for. It would make as much sense to suggest that your surround sound system is aware of the music.

I agree with you that computers are not aware.

My point is that it is impossible to prove that something is aware. If you disagree, what test would you propose?

 

[apophenia]

You're kidding, right? By that logic, the sensor on an alarm system is aware!



This doesn't answer my question. How can I be sure that I am not a computer that is programmed to only think it is aware but is not really aware?



I agree with you that computers are not aware.

My point is that it is impossible to prove that something is aware. If you disagree, what test would you propose?

Later ... I'm using am android phone and going blind !

 

[idav]

You're kidding, right? By that logic, the sensor on an alarm system is aware!

It is hard to get a solid answer from anything that doesn't have cognition. We are the result of simple electrical and chemical processes. I doubt adding chemical functionality will make a difference in a machine.

My point is that it is impossible to prove that something is aware. If you disagree, what test would you propose?

It has to react. What more should be required? The example I gave earlier is a plant that turns toward the sun. I would argue that the plant is aware of the sun since it is reacting to it.

 

[apophenia]

It is hard to get a solid answer from anything that doesn't have cognition. We are the result of simple electrical and chemical processes. I doubt adding chemical functionality will make a difference in a machine.

It has to react. What more should be required? The example I gave earlier is a plant that turns toward the sun. I would argue that the plant is aware of the sun since it is reacting to it.

One more ... LOL ...

I have a solar powered toy flower which moves its leaves when light hits the solar cell ... Aware ?

 

[idav]

You are not talking about awareness, you are talking about simple physical connectedness plus cause and effect resulting in some particular behaviour of the system.

Yeah, and you sound like your talking about a brain.

 

[idav]

I have a solar powered toy flower which moves its leaves when light hits the solar cell ... Aware ?

It's a shame we can't ask it. Have you ever tried to ask a snake if it's aware? It just looks at you all mean.

 

[Tiberius]

It has to react. What more should be required? The example I gave earlier is a plant that turns toward the sun. I would argue that the plant is aware of the sun since it is reacting to it.

Then by this logic, mousetraps are aware of mice because they react to them.

 

[apophenia]

Then by this logic, mousetraps are aware.

Frubals

 

[idav]

Then by this logic, mousetraps are aware of mice because they react to them.

Matter and energy at its finest even if it isn't the most complex system.