The Debate of God.

[blackout]

God is the very fabric and manifestation of all that is, and all that is possible.

As such, I (also) am God.
More specifically, I AM a Sentient Creator God.

Pantheism= God is All Things/All Things are God.

 

[apophenia]

Matter and energy at its finest even if it isn't the most complex system.

Which has nought to do with awareness.
If she bucky ball more aware than an atom of hydrogen ?

It may well be, but if so do we start looking for a new particle ?

Or what ?

 

[idav]

Which has nought to do with awareness.
If she bucky ball more aware than an atom of hydrogen ?

It may well be, but if so do we start looking for a new particle ?

Or what ?

When you mention 'more' aware I'm not sure what that is supposed to really mean. There are other things to describe our abilities like cognition, consciousness, self-awareness but just simple basic awareness in itself isn't anything remarkable until it is multiplied a trillion times over like that of a multicellular organism.

 

[apophenia]

When you mention 'more' aware I'm not sure what that is supposed to really mean. There are other things to describe our abilities like cognition, consciousness, self-awareness but just simple basic awareness in itself isn't anything remarkable until it is multiplied a trillion times over like that of a multicellular organism.

Isn't remarkable ?

Wow

If you multiply nothing a trillion times over what do you get ?
Nothing.

So, what is the something you propose is being multiplied to get conscious awareness if existence ?

 

[Daviso452]

That is a circular argument . The brain would have to already aware of itself to 'wish to protect itself'

Not nessesarily. This is where instincts come in. Or a sort of programmed reaction. All life is "programmed" to protect itself and survive. Or rather, those who are programmed right survive. Thus evolution began. When it came to animals, and more specifically, humans, thinking became something we used in order to survive. We have not fully broken from all instinctive behaviors (such as sexual attraction, fear of death, etc.), but we do not just jump on the nearest pile of food either.

Being aware of ourselves was due to us gaining thought, as a result of the devolopment of a brain. The brain was created in order to better survive by thinking about your actions, such as whether you should eat a rock or a fruit.

Being aware is nothing special. It is merely a by-product. "I am currently aware of myself creating this message." Woop-dee-******-doo. I realize it may seem like some sort of grand, amazing, unique aspect that seperates us from the animals, but all that you are doing is giving "awareness" the same divinity status as christians give the bible.

Does that make sense?

 

[apophenia]

Pardon the typos ... android phone typing is not a developed skill of mine , not liking it much.

 

[Daviso452]

Okay, as a side-note, I just have to add this:

I feel so god damn smug and proud about my ******* avatar. I'm aware that i'm being smug and proud, but I can't seem to stop. Bleedman is a ******* amazing artist and Dexter is just kick-***.
"I am Dexter, boy genius." That ginger is my ******* idol.

 

[apophenia]

Not nessesarily. This is where instincts come in. Or a sort of programmed reaction. All life is "programmed" to protect itself and survive. Or rather, those who are programmed right survive. Thus evolution began. When it came to animals, and more specifically, humans, thinking became something we used in order to survive. We have not fully broken from all instinctive behaviors (such as sexual attraction, fear of death, etc.), but we do not just jump on the nearest pile of food either.

Being aware of ourselves was due to us gaining thought, as a result of the devolopment of a brain. The brain was created in order to better survive by thinking about your actions, such as whether you should eat a rock or a fruit.

Being aware is nothing special. It is merely a by-product. "I am currently aware of myself creating this message." Woop-dee-******-doo. I realize it may seem like some sort of grand, amazing, unique aspect that seperates us from the animals, but all that you are doing is giving "awareness" the same divinity status as christians give the bible.

Does that make sense?

You didn't answer my observation about your circular argument. It was a significant point.

And just to clear something up - These remarks if mine were originally in response to see post challenging all to come up with an aspect of reality which is not material.

I proposed awareness. So far noone has provided a scientific explanation if she material basis for awareness, only for complex behaviour.

Simple. Don'r stress about it.

 

[Daviso452]

You didn't answer my observation about your circular argument. It was a significant point.

And just to clear something up - These remarks if mine were originally in response to see post challenging all to come up with an aspect of reality which is not material.

I proposed awareness. So far noone has provided a scientific explanation if she material basis for awareness, only for complex behaviour.

Simple. Don'r stress about it.

I'm stressing because "awareness" isn't a "thing" it's just a reaction. You seem to be putting "awareness" on equal terms with matter and energy, when I see it more on equal terms with desire or empathy. I do not understand why you put "awareness" on the same level of matter and energy.

Plus I have a problem when people don't come to an agreement on a truth.

So please describe how what I said is a circular arguement. I enterpreted your words as me using thought to explain awareness and that thought came from trying to survive, which is also thought.

The point I was trying to make is that thought originated from instinct which originated as a by-product of evolution (in order to pass on genes we must survive).

Please clarify and hopefully we can come to an agreement soon.

 

[apophenia]

Not nessesarily. This is where instincts come in. Or a sort of programmed reaction. All life is "programmed" to protect itself and survive. Or rather, those who are programmed right survive. Thus evolution began. When it came to animals, and more specifically, humans, thinking became something we used in order to survive. We have not fully broken from all instinctive behaviors (such as sexual attraction, fear of death, etc.), but we do not just jump on the nearest pile of food either.

Being aware of ourselves was due to us gaining thought, as a result of the devolopment of a brain. The brain was created in order to better survive by thinking about your actions, such as whether you should eat a rock or a fruit.

Being aware is nothing special. It is merely a by-product. "I am currently aware of myself creating this message." Woop-dee-******-doo. I realize it may seem like some sort of grand, amazing, unique aspect that seperates us from the animals, but all that you are doing is giving "awareness" the same divinity status as christians give the bible.

Does that make sense?

Actually, no. It doesn'r.

It is still a circular argument.

You say "Being aware of ourselves was due to us gaining thought, as a result of the development of a brain. The brain was created in order to better survive by thinking ..."

Do how did matter which was not yet aware come up with the idea to build itself a brain ? How could inanimate matter have the intention to improve itself ? Do you realise that what you are saying is as religious as creationism ?

 

[Daviso452]

Oh I see what you are saying. But I thought you believed in evolution?

You raise an excellent point; a point which I, still a high schooler, have asked my science teachers on several occasions.

It took me a while, but I finally understood it:

When life evolves, it does not nessessarily evolve to fit it's enviroment. That is a common misconception. When life evolves, a mutation is created causing a change in that species. If the change was good, then that animal will survive and the new gene it created will be carried on. If it is a bad mutation, then it will either die out or just life much less effectively, until a good mutation occurs.

The brain didn't simply just appear; it was a series of several mutations over a long period of time. It's possible that there were some bad mutations along the way, but because it was bad, it died off and is no longer around.

Life did not go "I need a way to think" and it had a brain; because brain cells allowed multi-celled organisms to survive, they lived on and eventually turned into the brains we have today.

 

[apophenia]

There is certainly plenty of evidence for evolution, and you seem to have a clue about the theory. I don't claim one thing it another, though I will say that Christian creationism and anything like it is nonsense IMHO.

But I have noted that a lot of the language used by evolutionists seems pantheistic, though it is 'in the closet'. LOL

Most of Darwin's supporters are at all loss to reconcile his remark that "God doesn't play dice with the universe "

Evolution is often personified. People say stuff like "evolution wanted ..." or like what Is quoted from you ..."the brain was created in order to ..."

 

[Tiberius]

You avoiding the issue.

Do you think mousetraps have awareness?

 

[Prophet]

Hi apophenia,

I'm pretty sure that quote about God was from Einstein, and from my memory, it was in response to a paradoxical interpretation of quantum physics.

Aside from this slight correction, I have been admiring your skill in this debate.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

When life evolves, it does not necessarily evolve to fit it's environment. That is a common misconception.

Wait, that isn't the case; environmental change is also a factor in evolution.
A species can evolve to fit its environment over time, because some specimens won't be able to cope with whatever the alteration is, and perish. Those who don't will produce offspring better suited to the new condition.

 

[Tiberius]

Most of Darwin's supporters are at all loss to reconcile his remark that "God doesn't play dice with the universe "

Einstein said that in response to the idea of quantum mechanics operating on probability. That is, QM can only tell you the probability of a particular outcome, it cannot say that something will definitely happen or not. Einstein disagreed with this and said that God does not play dice in the universe to express his opinion that the universe did not operate in such a manner.

He was wrong.

 

[apophenia]

Hi apophenia,

I'm pretty sure that quote about God was from Einstein, and from my memory, it was in response to a paradoxical interpretation of quantum physics.

Aside from this slight correction, I have been admiring your skill in this debate.

Oops

I thought I may have got that wrong. Darwin did make some references to a creator, but yeah that wasn't it.

 

[idav]

You avoiding the issue.

Do you think mousetraps have awareness?

I've implied that cause and effect are the basis for the emergence of awareness. There are things that can be done to the mouse trap to make it more "alive". When you have something with the complexity of a cell is when we really see the difference. Wherever you want to draw the line between non-animate matter and life is up to you but the foundation is based on simple cause and effect and gets much more complex when you add electronic data transfer and chemical reactions. If all existence is just based off of simpler elements then our awareness amounts to the emergence of a complex system based on simple principles of what energy and matter can do.

 

[Prophet]

Einstein said that in response to the idea of quantum mechanics operating on probability. That is, QM can only tell you the probability of a particular outcome, it cannot say that something will definitely happen or not. Einstein disagreed with this and said that God does not play dice in the universe to express his opinion that the universe did not operate in such a manner.

He was wrong.

I think it is fair to say that Einstein never disagreed that QM could only tell you the probability of a particular outcome as this observation is pretty obvious. What Einstein disagreed with was the Copenhagen interpretation of QM which attempted to posit this probability as the ultimate reality underlying what we see in QM observations leading to crap scifi movies in our time like Timecop.

 

[Daviso452]

There is certainly plenty of evidence for evolution, and you seem to have a clue about the theory. I don't claim one thing it another, though I will say that Christian creationism and anything like it is nonsense IMHO.

But I have noted that a lot of the language used by evolutionists seems pantheistic, though it is 'in the closet'. LOL

Most of Darwin's supporters are at all loss to reconcile his remark that "God doesn't play dice with the universe "

Evolution is often personified. People say stuff like "evolution wanted ..." or like what Is quoted from you ..."the brain was created in order to ..."

I agree with Tiberius. You are avoiding the subject. Did I solve the circular arguement dilema or not? Please note that you were not wrong: there were merely factors that you were not aware of. You would have been right; except that when you look deeper it turns out it is something different entirely.

Oh, and Hammer, you are right, and that is something I missed. But that doesn't make what I said invalid however.