The Design of Torture

[Meow Mix]

So, for someone looking in on a situation which they deem to be happy, would they not need a comparitive value system in order to pass judgement on the relative state of those being observed?

Yes, that's the analogy I was trying to draw. The people living in the universe without suffering wouldn't have a word for happiness because they wouldn't have suffering to compare it to.* That doesn't mean that their lives aren't what we would call happy, though. Just because a word/concept is absent in a person doesn't mean that they don't unknowingly possess it.

For instance imagine a world where belief in gods doesn't exist at all. The word "atheist" doesn't exist for those people, but they are still, in fact, fulfilling the definition of our word for "atheist." In the same sense, just because people might lack a word for "happiness" or "joy" or "pleasurable" doesn't mean that they aren't in fact experiencing those things that we call happiness -- they just wouldn't have a need to give it a name.

(* -- I'm leaving out potential arguments here that even in a world without suffering people may yet know what happiness is because they might have varying states of contentment -- indeed, they could be "more" content for instance upon seeing a good friend than they were content moments before, so they may develop a word equivalent to "happiness" [or rather, what we'd call "more happy"] to describe that.)

Also, for the people who exist in some state of happieness or lack thereof, are they able to exist in whatever state oblivious to whether it is acceptable or not?

What do you mean by acceptable? Sorry, I'd try to answer with my best guess at what you mean but I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In 1984, where the idea of Big Brother originates, the citizens of Oceania love Big Brother and the Party, despite the fact that they routinely torture and kill "thoughtcriminals". My point is that it's entirely possible to be happy about horrendous circumstances.

It's a matter of perspective.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, that's the analogy I was trying to draw. The people living in the universe without suffering wouldn't have a word for happiness because they wouldn't have suffering to compare it to.* That doesn't mean that their lives aren't what we would call happy, though. Just because a word/concept is absent in a person doesn't mean that they don't unknowingly possess it.

For instance imagine a world where belief in gods doesn't exist at all. The word "atheist" doesn't exist for those people, but they are still, in fact, fulfilling the definition of our word for "atheist." In the same sense, just because people might lack a word for "happiness" or "joy" or "pleasurable" doesn't mean that they aren't in fact experiencing those things that we call happiness -- they just wouldn't have a need to give it a name.

(* -- I'm leaving out potential arguments here that even in a world without suffering people may yet know what happiness is because they might have varying states of contentment -- indeed, they could be "more" content for instance upon seeing a good friend than they were content moments before, so they may develop a word equivalent to "happiness" [or rather, what we'd call "more happy"] to describe that.)

Ok, I think this will then sum up my view. There isn't a way in non-dualistic perception to be able to make a choice in which choosing God is better than present existence.

What do you mean by acceptable? Sorry, I'd try to answer with my best guess at what you mean but I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

Well I think the obvious answer would be yes because they exist. Perhaps what you are desribing is existence in heaven where there is happieness without any knowledge of there being a possibility of it being worse.

 

[PolyHedral]

So if happiness withotu suffering is possible, why create Earth in the first place?

 

[Wotan]

So if happiness withotu suffering is possible, why create Earth in the first place?

To find out which pots he marred in the making so he can toss them to Hell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To find out which pots he marred in the making so he can toss them to Hell.

But each of us chooses what kind of clay we are.
We present to the Great Potter soft and pliable clay so he can form us into something useful, or we can present to the Great Potter clay that is hard and brittle fit only for destruction.

Biblical hell is mankind's stone-cold common grave where Jesus was.
-Acts 2vs27,31; John 11vs11-14.

All the dead in hell will be 'delivered up' [Rev 20vs13,14].
After all are delivered up or resurrected, then emptied-out, vacant, void-of-people hell dies a symbolic second death or no return.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So if happiness withotu suffering is possible, why create Earth in the first place?

When Adam was created was he suffering in his Edenic paradise?
Adam would only suffer if disobedient.
Obedient Adam would live forever on a beautiful paradisaic earth free from suffering, sickness and death.

Why create earth in the first place?
Psalm 115v16 answers that the earth God has given to the children of men.
-Isaiah 45 v12,18.

One person said to me to think of a family business.
God was in the business of creation.
God took his Son into the family business of creation.
Father&Son, Inc.
First they made the spirit or angelic world.
Then they expanded the family business to include a material or physical realm for human creation to enjoy.

That is why Revelation [22v2] shows a happy climax that during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth there will be healing or curing of the nations....

 

[PolyHedral]

But there is no reason to require obedience, other than His own narcissism.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So if happiness withotu suffering is possible, why create Earth in the first place?

So you could have free will.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

To find out which pots he marred in the making so he can toss them to Hell.

Calvinist.

 

[PolyHedral]

So you could have free will.

But I can have free will, because what possible reason could I have for disturbing paradise?

 

[Meow Mix]

Not only that, but making actions which cause suffering physically impossible does not impede free will.

Right now it's physically impossible to walk on the ceiling yet clearly that doesn't mean we aren't free agents.

So, the argument that suffering has to be possible for us to have free will is misplaced.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not only that, but making actions which cause suffering physically impossible does not impede free will.

Right now it's physically impossible to walk on the ceiling yet clearly that doesn't mean we aren't free agents.

So, the argument that suffering has to be possible for us to have free will is misplaced.

In order to choose a God that offers an eternity in heaven without suffering there needs to be a limited existence with suffering.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But I can have free will, because what possible reason could I have for disturbing paradise?

Because you have free will to do so.

 

[Starsoul]

Is my understanding right about that some humans who descended from those who did not contract the Bubonic plague have no cell portals of entry for HIV so those would have a genetic advantage?

Random mutation or some changes are from '?' sources over the centuries, and we are farthest in history from when Adam originally had human perfection of sound mind and body.

Do we know if military experiments, or other's experiments, with viruses have not gone awry? Terribly wrong?

Originally wasn't the primary mode of transmission for HIV spread through sex and blood transfusions? God's warnings have always been against fornication and misuse of blood. [Acts 15v20,29] However, Scripture does refer to Satan as the 'god' of this world of badness- 2 Cor 4v4; Rev 12vs9,12.

Not only that, many scientists believe that HIV was manufactured as part of a biological warfare programme, designed to wipe out large numbers of black and homosexual people. Many say this was done under the auspices of the US federal 'Special Cancer Virus Program' (SCVP), possibly with the help of the CIA.

People of African origin are extremely susceptible to this virus, and they catch it even with a sneeze as compared to the conditions required for it to infect, Through blood, contamination, or etc.


The Origin of HIV and the First Cases of AIDS

 

[Starsoul]

In order to choose a God that offers an eternity in heaven without suffering, there needs to be a limited existence with suffering.

Very True.

 

[PolyHedral]

Not only that, many scientists believe that HIV was manufactured as part of a biological warfare programme, designed to wipe out large numbers of black and homosexual people.

In order to choose a God that offers an eternity in heaven without suffering, there needs to be a limited existence with suffering.

Why? Why should it be an offer in the first place, and not automatically granted?

 

[Meow Mix]

In order to choose a God that offers an eternity in heaven without suffering there needs to be a limited existence with suffering.

Why?

There is nothing contradictory about just having an eternity without suffering -- period. No limited existence with suffering required.

So again, why?

 

[Starsoul]

Why?

There is nothing contradictory about just having an eternity without suffering -- period. No limited existence with suffering required.

So again, why?

There is. And that is conditioned with 'a little effort' required to make it to the 'eternity without suffering', rather than taking 'eternity without suffering' ,for granted.

If all suffering(in this world) is temporary, so is all happiness, and so is this world, the idea is just ' a journey of Awareness of the 'being' in this world regarding his own true worth'.

 

[Starsoul]

even the teletubbies have more IQ.

The citation link is provided in my post, only if you wernt so busy racing all your heads solely for a smirk.