The Design of Torture

[PolyHedral]

...A link is provided in your post, but it doesn't agree with what you are saying.

While none of these [conspiracy] theories can be definitively disproved, the evidence given to back them up is usually based upon supposition and speculation...

If all suffering(in this world) is temporary, so is all happiness,

[citation needed] again. You can be happy without needing something negative to compare it to.

 

[Meow Mix]

There is. And that is conditioned with 'a little effort' required to make it to the 'eternity without suffering', rather than taking 'eternity without suffering' ,for granted.

If all suffering(in this world) is temporary, so is all happiness, and so is this world, the idea is just ' a journey of Awareness of the 'being' in this world regarding his own true worth'.

...this doesn't explain at all why suffering is needed at all.

 

[Starsoul]

...this doesn't explain at all why suffering is needed at all.

Do you, for that matter have a better, workable explanation? It atleast WORKS as an explanation, it sits better with human psyche and mind, and atleast saves from the anxiety of working up a suitable explanation rather than having none.

Not that believers 'like' to suffer, its just that they cope well, which is obvious, whats wrong with that? All is well that ends well

 

[Meow Mix]

Do you, for that matter have a better, workable explanation? It atleast WORKS as an explanation, it sits better with human psyche and mind, and atleast saves from the anxiety of working up a suitable explanation rather than having none.

Not that believers 'like' to suffer, its just that they cope well, which is obvious, whats wrong with that? All is well that ends well

It's not a matter of explaining it for me -- suffering is expected to exist if atheism is true since if atheism is true life adapts to the universe with limited resources; and imperfectly so -- therefore, suffering.

It's not so easy to explain if there is an omnipotent/omniscient God who is thought to be benevolent: there is a contradiction. An omnipotent/omniscient benevolent God existing at the same time as suffering existing is as absurd as a square-circle or a married bachelor.

Therefore either God is not omnipotent (can't prevent suffering), not omniscient (doesn't know how), not benevolent (allows or causes suffering), or doesn't exist.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why?

There is nothing contradictory about just having an eternity without suffering -- period. No limited existence with suffering required.

So again, why?

Because God gave you the ability to choose and would wish that you would choose Him. The hook seems to be that life with God is better than life without God, hence a dualistic understanding of the world and the free will to choose.

 

[PolyHedral]

But He didn't give me the choose of which way was "up." And if there is no possible benefit to living without God, and God knows I know this, why did he give me the option in the first place?

 

[Meow Mix]

Because God gave you the ability to choose and would wish that you would choose Him. The hook seems to be that life with God is better than life without God, hence a dualistic understanding of the world and the free will to choose.

Would I be benevolent or malevolent for handing a small child a loaded gun?

Also much suffering doesn't involve choice. People don't choose to be born with genetic defects or to contract malaria. Why does such suffering exist?

Why do innocent victims exist? If someone wants to choose not-God that's their prerogative but why are they able to hurt people who had nothing to do with that choice?

It still doesn't make sense.

 

[Starsoul]

Would I be benevolent or malevolent for handing a small child a loaded gun?

malevolent intent empowering your Free will . The Brutal excersize their free will to gain their own evil advantages, and the oppressed, who are limited by opportunities or choices to pick, are judged accordingly. God does not see the result of our actions to judge us, he only judges us for the intent and the effort we put into that action, making it evil or good.

It happens so many times that things go the wrong way inspite of our best intentions and scrupulous efforts, and believers believe that to be the will of God for a better reason that we only come to know in time, and not fear being judged for their good intentions and efforts going to waste.

The concept of Hell is for those people specifically who ONLY stop themselves from any brutal malevolence, as a last resort, by restraining themselves out of 'Fear of a greater being' who is watching all and will get back to them ( such people only have the capacity to stop evil if they FEAR greater brutality being done to them) But For those who act out of love and kindness, their love is enough to keep them away from malevolent, brutal intentions and actions anyway.

Also much suffering doesn't involve choice. People don't choose to be born with genetic defects or to contract malaria. Why does such suffering exist?

Thats one way of looking at suffering. Being born with a defect may seem pitiful to others, but in our belief for instance, that person is really special and nobel in the eyes of God. He goes straight to heaven (and he will be free of those defects there). And honestly, most people born with genetic defects are great believers, by choice. Their spirit is undaunting and their courage, awe inspiring.

I could go into human/industrial pollution contributing significantly towards genetic mutations and cancers , and the increasing genetic mutations related to smoking, alcohol, drug abuse, in subsequent generations, but then one would say God can stop that. God informs you to stay away from all the injurious substances and chemicals, but do we really stay away?

When Prevention was designed as a shield against disease, why jump into a disease and expect God to show miracles? But even then, He offers cure for our repeated dalliances with nuisances ( meaning the things that we are supposed to stay away from, by the of Word of God and we do not)

Why do innocent victims exist? If someone wants to choose not-God that's their prerogative but why are they able to hurt people who had nothing to do with that choice?

If people only knew how precious the cost of that temporary Hurt is, in the eyes of God, that we humans feel in this limited world , they would beg for him to send them back in the world again and again to be hurt over and over again, and That is what God says in our belief.

It may not justify the concept of suffering, but it definitely justifies the value of reward

no pain, no gain

 

[PolyHedral]

Thats one way of looking at suffering. Being born with a defect may seem pitiful to others, but in our belief for instance, that person is really special and nobel in the eyes of God. He goes straight to heaven (and he will be free of those defects there). And honestly, most people born with genetic defects are great believers, by choice. Their spirit is undaunting and their courage, awe inspiring.

Most don't, because most are dead. And how are they "special?" They're quality of life has been reduced, possibly to unbearable levels, through no fault of their own.

I could go into human/industrial pollution contributing significantly towards genetic mutations and cancers , and the increasing genetic mutations related to smoking, alcohol, drug abuse, in subsequent generations, but then one would say God can stop that. God informs you to stay away from all the injurious substances and chemicals, but do we really stay away?

And guess whose fault it is that the Sun puts out so much harmful UV radiation...? And who invented the tobacco and cocaine plants?

When Prevention was designed as a shield against disease, why jump into a disease and expect God to show miracles? But even then, He offers cure for our repeated dalliances with nuisances ( meaning the things that we are supposed to stay away from, by the of Word of God and we do not)

Because it should not be possible to get the disease, because there is no reason for God to invent it.

no pain, no gain

Only because of God.

 

[Wotan]

"If people only knew how precious the cost of that temporary Hurt is, in the eyes of God, that we humans feel in this limited world , they would beg for him to send them back in the world again and again to be hurt over and over again, and That is what God says in our belief."

IF that is what you believe that pain is GOOD and you want MORE of it - if you actually BELIEVE that - the word "sick" is inadequate to describe such "belief."

And if your mythology actually does teach this crap all the MORE reason to have nothing to do with it.

 

[Starsoul]

"If people only knew how precious the cost of that temporary Hurt is, in the eyes of God, that we humans feel in this limited world , they would beg for him to send them back in the world again and again to be hurt over and over again, and That is what God says in our belief."

IF that is what you believe that pain is GOOD and you want MORE of it - if you actually BELIEVE that - the word "sick" is inadequate to describe such "belief."

And if your mythology actually does teach this crap all the MORE reason to have nothing to do with it.

Ouch, somebody is hurt!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's not a matter of explaining it for me -- suffering is expected to exist if atheism is true since if atheism is true life adapts to the universe with limited resources; and imperfectly so -- therefore, suffering.
It's not so easy to explain if there is an omnipotent/omniscient God who is thought to be benevolent: there is a contradiction. An omnipotent/omniscient benevolent God existing at the same time as suffering existing is as absurd as a square-circle or a married bachelor.
Therefore either God is not omnipotent (can't prevent suffering), not omniscient (doesn't know how), not benevolent (allows or causes suffering), or doesn't exist.

Time frame. Adam and Eve were supposed to populate the earth.
Fill [not overpopulate] the earth with perfectly sound and healthy sinless people to live forever on earth.

Because A&E had no children while in human perfection then Adam, as our family head, could only pass down to us what he now possessed which was human imperfection of mind and body. Sin cause death. Adam sinned; Adam died. If we could stop sinning we would not die. We can not stop sinning so we also die.

More than Adam and Eve were involved in Satan calling God a liar.
Satan wants the worship from all humans.
So Satan set himself up as a rival ruler to God's Golden Rule.
To immediately destroy those three would have proven God's supreme power to angelic creation, but we would have never been born.
We would not know the truth about the penalty for disobedience being death.

At Job [2vs4,5] Satan believes if our 'flesh' is touched [loose health] we will curse God. Or in other words, apply enough pressure to us and sooner or later we will not serve God.

By Satan lying he calls into question God's right to require obedience from us.
By A&E disobeying that calls into question if all humans would disobey?
Satan claimed [Job 2vs1-5] that he could turn all of us away from God.
Time is allowing for us to be born and Satan to prove his claim, and like Job giving us the opportunity to demonstrate who we want to obey as sovereign over us, Satan or God?
We can all prove Satan to be the liar, and as a loving son or daughter would want to clear their father's name from all false accusations or charges,
so we can loyally do that for our Heavenly Father.

According to Revelation a happy outcome is certain.
Rev [22v2] says there will be healing or curing of the nations.

So this system we live under [2Cor 4v4] is temporary.
Temporary until we die, or if we are alive at the time of Jesus 'glory' [or involvement into mankind's affairs] then we can continue to live right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth with the happy climax of reaching human perfection of sound mind and body as Adam originally had, and welcome back most of the sleeping dead to also be part of the humble meek that will inherit the earth. Inherit a beautiful paradisaic earth when only righteousness will dwell.
And as Isaiah [33v24] foretold that: No resident will say, "I am sick."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But He didn't give me the choose of which way was "up."

You do have limited free will. You only know up because there is down though.

And if there is no possible benefit to living without God, and God knows I know this, why did he give me the option in the first place?

Um, I thought we went through this, because He want's you to choose Him.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Would I be benevolent or malevolent for handing a small child a loaded gun?

Also much suffering doesn't involve choice. People don't choose to be born with genetic defects or to contract malaria. Why does such suffering exist?

Why do innocent victims exist? If someone wants to choose not-God that's their prerogative but why are they able to hurt people who had nothing to do with that choice?

It still doesn't make sense.

Let's start with whether you agree with the premise that in order for God to be a better choice then there needs to be a worse choice.

 

[Meow Mix]

Let's start with whether you agree with the premise that in order for God to be a better choice then there needs to be a worse choice.

Sure, I'll agree to an extent. For instance people can choose to live with God for eternity or to live separately.

It should also be noted though that such a choice should be an informed one, and "living separately" doesn't require the existence of suffering even if it lacks the ostensible bliss of living with God.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sure, I'll agree to an extent. For instance people can choose to live with God for eternity or to live separately.

It should also be noted though that such a choice should be an informed one, and "living separately" doesn't require the existence of suffering even if it lacks the ostensible bliss of living with God.

Why would one choose to live with god then?

 

[Meow Mix]

Why would one choose to live with god then?

I thought this was about free choice?

Are you insinuating that something bad should happen to those who might hypothetically choose not to live with god?

If so then it isn't a choice. That's like me holding a gun to your head and saying "You get to choose whether I pull the trigger or not."

If not then I don't understand the question. There could be a choice to live with God or not; "why" someone would make either choice is unknown to me because I can only know what I'd choose. I'd probably choose to live with God personally.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I thought this was about free choice?

Are you insinuating that something bad should happen to those who might hypothetically choose not to live with god?

If so then it isn't a choice. That's like me holding a gun to your head and saying "You get to choose whether I pull the trigger or not."

If not then I don't understand the question. There could be a choice to live with God or not; "why" someone would make either choice is unknown to me because I can only know what I'd choose. I'd probably choose to live with God personally.

Ok, You may choose this color red,

or this color red,

One comes with God the other doesn't. What is to guide your choice?

 

[Meow Mix]

Ok, You may choose this color red,

or this color red,

One comes with God the other doesn't. What is to guide your choice?

Whether or not you want God to be there or not.

Why is this difficult? I don't understand. Does one box have to have an electric chair, blowtorches and venomous snakes for the choice to be meaningful? Of COURSE not.

Here are two circular rooms (because I'm lazy and don't want to find pictures):

O O

One has your friend Bob in it and the other doesn't.

....................do you really need the one that doesn't to have flamethrowers burning your face off in order for it to be a meaningful choice to choose Bob or not?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Whether or not you want God to be there or not.

Why is this difficult? I don't understand. Does one box have to have an electric chair, blowtorches and venomous snakes for the choice to be meaningful? Of COURSE not.

Here are two circular rooms (because I'm lazy and don't want to find pictures):

O O

One has your friend Bob in it and the other doesn't.

....................do you really need the one that doesn't to have flamethrowers burning your face off in order for it to be a meaningful choice to choose Bob or not?

It's not difficult. you seem to think that in a kinder gentler world that people would be able to make a choice. god dis agrees. He feels, and seems to know about the degradation of sin and wants people to understand it as well.