The Division in Christianity

[wellwisher]

A common sentiment I see here is the notion that Christianity is hopelessly divided in its teachings. That there are "thousands" of sects all of which teach mutually exclusive things. To be sure, the divisions are a scandal, but I think these divisions are often overstated. There is a historical Christian orthodoxy agreed upon by most mainstream Christian traditions. Yes, there are serious disagreements among them: nonetheless Catholicism, Orthodoxy and most forms of traditional Protestantism agree on quite a lot in regard to who Jesus was and what God expects from the human race in terms of moral conduct.

That we have seen the emergence of bizarre cults mostly originating in the United States these past two-hundred years is not an argument against the existence of a Christian orthodoxy. A Jehovah's Witness ranting about "Churchianity" and "Christendom" does not prove that the Christian tradition is bereft of any and all agreement. The proliferation of sects (mainstream and heretical) is a mostly Protestant phenomenon. Catholicism and Orthodoxy - which together comprise majority of the world's Christians - still exist and maintain the historical faith more or less intact.

I do not see any problem with this, since it is consistent with the promise of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a herd effect, but rather it is more individual; inner man. Much of the separation into many different sects is based on people finding a place where they can best commune with the spirit. In the Southern part of the USA, there are tons of small independent Churches, built around a preacher, who may be spirited within their little flock.

I used to go church hopping, when I lived down south, to see what this was all about. What I found was these small individual churches were very intimate, due to their small size. Often the elder men would have titles under the preacher; brothers and elders. It was like a big extended family in a small school room, where all knew each other and taught and worked together. The larger Churches tend to make one more anonymous; lecture hall. Different people commune in the way that is best for them. I more preferred the lecture hall so I could drift off and not be singled out and made to stay in the room; inner voice instead of outer voice.

I liked the large older Catholic Churches due to their Beauty and Grandeur. They had the high cathedral ceilings what were often painted and murals of heaven and bible stories, the large ornate pillars, all the stain glass windows, the relief drawings between all the windows, sculptures, then the alter with the gold, marble and velvet, the organ and choir. The old time Latin mass added to the mystery. All I needed to do was to keep track of the crowd when it was time to stand, knell and sit, and then I could drift off again.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Strictly speaking, I consider apostolic succession to be a requirement for a true church. (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy). Which is something I've been alluding to this whole thread. The ancient faith is still being kept by all the aforementioned communions. God seems to be preserving that faith as he promised he would. You can't judge Christianity by a fragmented Protestantism, which at its core is a sixteenth century protest movement.

The fact that there is no consensus in the religion proves otherwise. Christianity unified worldwide with one unified faith would impress me over a possibility of communication with a god as it would distinguish itself as no other religion can in terms of division.

Clearly it isn't the case, which was a core reason I dropped the faith and ultimately theism altogether.

 

[Spice]

Both Scripture and the Nicene Creed state that there is only one Church. That this Church has splintered is an unfortunate reality. A reality that I think is beyond human power to fix at this point.

And that is good. Jesus told the woman at the well, the Samaritan that was not allowed to worship in the Temple, that the time had come for all to worship in spirit.

 

[Spice]

I agree with you on the first point. Human sin being what it is. I disagree on the second. I would not be a Christian if I believed Jesus were but the merely human leader of a first century Jewish sect.

So you don't believe in the message Jesus delivered on behalf of the Father, but rather in the sacrifice it is said he made for "you." And there lies the problem with mainstream Christianity -- it is more attuned to self-love in reaching the afterlife than brotherly love of the here and now.

 

[cataway]

A common sentiment I see here is the notion that Christianity is hopelessly divided in its teachings. That there are "thousands" of sects all of which teach mutually exclusive things. To be sure, the divisions are a scandal, but I think these divisions are often overstated. There is a historical Christian orthodoxy agreed upon by most mainstream Christian traditions. Yes, there are serious disagreements among them: nonetheless Catholicism, Orthodoxy and most forms of traditional Protestantism agree on quite a lot in regard to who Jesus was and what God expects from the human race in terms of moral conduct.

That we have seen the emergence of bizarre cults mostly originating in the United States these past two-hundred years is not an argument against the existence of a Christian orthodoxy. A Jehovah's Witness ranting about "Churchianity" and "Christendom" does not prove that the Christian tradition is bereft of any and all agreement. The proliferation of sects (mainstream and heretical) is a mostly Protestant phenomenon. Catholicism and Orthodoxy - which together comprise majority of the world's Christians - still exist and maintain the historical faith more or less intact.

could go to matthew 24 :5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many."
there are many that do indeed say that Jesus is the Christ . misleading people was foretold that it would happen .

 

[Trailblazer]

Strictly speaking, I consider apostolic succession to be a requirement for a true church. (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy). Which is something I've been alluding to this whole thread. The ancient faith is still being kept by all the aforementioned communions. God seems to be preserving that faith as he promised he would. You can't judge Christianity by a fragmented Protestantism, which at its core is a sixteenth century protest movement.

Imo, it is not God who is preserving the faith, it is the Christians.

No, we should not judge what Jesus said by a fragmented Protestantism, but unfortunately what Jesus said is mostly forgotten and it is not the centerpiece of Christianity. Man-made Christian doctrines rule the day, and all churches have them.

 

[jimb]

could go to matthew 24 :5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many."
there are many that do indeed say that Jesus is the Christ . misleading people was foretold that it would happen .

Nice try! The cited text says "For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray." So Jesus, the true Messiah, said that He was (and is) the only true Messiah and warned about others falsely making the same claim.

The "many that do indeed say that Jesus is the Christ" are correct.

Stop twisting what the Bible clearly says.

 

[cataway]

Nice try! The cited text says "For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray." So Jesus, the true Messiah, said that He was (and is) the only true Messiah and warned about others falsely making the same claim.

The "many that do indeed say that Jesus is the Christ" are correct.

Stop twisting what the Bible clearly says.

maybe i should type slower

 

[cataway]

Matthew 7:23​

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Luke 13:27​

But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

clearly there would be those that would not be recognize with favor. all because of being lead astray

 

[cataway]

my only bad may of been not also using 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nice try! The cited text says "For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray."

Matthew 24 KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus warned that many would come claiming to be Christ and deceive many since that is exactly what has happened!

Please note that Jesus did not say the HE was going to come back to this world, even when asked.
That is because Jesus was never planning to return to this world.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So Jesus, the true Messiah, said that He was (and is) the only true Messiah and warned about others falsely making the same claim.

Nope. It is the Christians who claim that Jesus is the only true Messiah. Jesus was 'a Messiah' but is not and never will be 'the Messiah' prophesied in the Old Testament who would come in the last days. Jesus cannot be that Messiah since Jesus never promised to return to this world in the last days.

The "many that do indeed say that Jesus is the Christ" are correct.

Stop twisting what the Bible clearly says.

Jesus was the Christ, but Jesus is not the end times Messiah since Jesus is never going to return to this world.

Stop twisting what the Bible clearly says.

 

[Glaurung]

The fact that there is no consensus in the religion proves otherwise. Christianity unified worldwide with one unified faith would impress me over a possibility of communication with a god as it would distinguish itself as no other religion can in terms of division.

Clearly it isn't the case, which was a core reason I dropped the faith and ultimately theism altogether.

My entire claim is that there is consensus at least theologically among most of the world's Christians.

 

[shunyadragon]

A common sentiment I see here is the notion that Christianity is hopelessly divided in its teachings. That there are "thousands" of sects all of which teach mutually exclusive things. To be sure, the divisions are a scandal, but I think these divisions are often overstated. There is a historical Christian orthodoxy agreed upon by most mainstream Christian traditions. Yes, there are serious disagreements among them: nonetheless Catholicism, Orthodoxy and most forms of traditional Protestantism agree on quite a lot in regard to who Jesus was and what God expects from the human race in terms of moral conduct.

That we have seen the emergence of bizarre cults mostly originating in the United States these past two-hundred years is not an argument against the existence of a Christian orthodoxy. A Jehovah's Witness ranting about "Churchianity" and "Christendom" does not prove that the Christian tradition is bereft of any and all agreement. The proliferation of sects (mainstream and heretical) is a mostly Protestant phenomenon. Catholicism and Orthodoxy - which together comprise majority of the world's Christians - still exist and maintain the historical faith more or less intact.

The greatest division in Christianity occurred in the 18th and 19th century with the advent of modern science. Previously there were rumbles through Christianity when geocentrism was rejected and Heliocentrism became accepted. Unfortunately in a recent poll geocentrism s still believed by 25% 2012 .

Here's some information about polls related to geocentrism. Old myths die hard.

geocentrism polls - Google Search

• In 2012, the National Science Foundation surveyed 2,200 people in the United States and asked them if the Earth or the sun goes around the other. A quarter of the respondents answered incorrectly.

The great division came to head in the Mid nineteenth century with the advent of Modern Science with the writings of Charles Darwin challenging the accepted Genesis Creation. Before this the Genesis Creation scenario was almost universally accepted in Christianity, There were other cracks forming in Middle East Archeology and Geology.

Today the schism is close to 50/50 and in many unresolvable.

In Islam the sciences of evolution are by far mostly opposed to the sciences of evolution.

The reason is the authors, compilers of the Bible and the Church Fathers believed the Bible was literal history, and yes plainly as written the Bible was written and compiled.as a literal historical document. Islam based on the belief in a literal historical Pentateuch and Quran is also the basis for the rejection of science.

 

[shunyadragon]

My entire claim is that there is consensus at least theologically among most of the world's Christians.

See post #33

 

[Glaurung]

Imo, it is not God who is preserving the faith, it is the Christians.

Matthew 16:18. This passage is interpreted as a promise by Christ that the visible Church will be preserved until the Second Coming. This is not to say the Church will be free from trials and tribulations but that the Church and the Christianity it teaches will never be (at least entirely) extinguished by any worldly or preternatural power.

No, we should not judge what Jesus said by a fragmented Protestantism, but unfortunately what Jesus said is mostly forgotten and it is not the centerpiece of Christianity. Man-made Christian doctrines rule the day, and all churches have them.

This is just your biased narrative, nothing more.

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 16:18. This passage is interpreted as a promise by Christ that the visible Church will be preserved until the Second Coming.

There will be no Second Coming of Jesus unless Jesus is a liar or the NT is in error.
If Jesus is a liar or the NT is in error there is no reason to trust anything else that is in the NT.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

But have fun waiting for Jesus to return along with all the other Christians. That will happen when hell freezes over.

 

[Trailblazer]

My entire claim is that there is consensus at least theologically among most of the world's Christians.

Is that why some Christians believe that after they die they will be raised to live life on earth forever and other Christians believe they will spend eternity in heaven?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me in Logic, God Will always provide the Chosen sacrifice.
To me in common with all Christians and Muslims and Jews, and all mankind is the Spirit. The Spirit unites all by the power. And from the Faith of Abraham and Isaac, belief in the promise sworn to him by God by God's own name in eternal life of The Body to all of his descendants, God resurrects Life Eternal through His Son, Jesus. To me we know in logic that Isaac will never die, and Abraham knew it, through Faith, only the sacrificial Lamb, the male Ram caught spotless by the thorns of the Thickets will become the early beginning of the greatest truth ever told. To me this is the Logic of the Kingdom of the Divine Will that Louisa Piccarreta, "Little Daughter of The Divine Will" speaks of and to me applies logically through the Faith of Abraham.

To me, the unity can only be understood by the logic of the controlling power. "Fiat" is Latin for let it be in the power of the one in control. The logic is that the spirit unites and we become one in being together with The Father and The Son, from mortal and corrupt and we become transformed immortal and incorruptible and becoming again, glorified and transfigured by the Power of the Divine Will.

How does the Divine Spirit of Authority and Spirit and Life do this? In logic to me, The Will becomes from the eternal spirit, the eternal authority and eternal laws of spirit and life of the eternal universe, The Word, that is present before creation was ever created was even created. The Word is the pattern of creation that cannot fail. To me The Word is the intelligence that manifests the unfailing Body of God, as share from the cross as the Paraclete, who some call, I call, the person of "The Holy Spirit." Louisa's writings help make clear to me from faith to logic, He will not leave us orphans. He creates the soul with Body, and blows from the Spirit through the Body and for the Soul of The Being the chance for the created being to accept, to choose the universal acceptor, Fulfilled Eternal Love of the Body through the unfailing Will of The Creator, God, The Father. And in logic to me The Will is the Becoming into the Kingdom of The Divine from mortal and the corrupt flesh and spirit in the Soul of the Being through the Created Body. We become united with all mankind as one in being together with the Father and The Son, becoming the Image of The Creator as the Immortal, incorruptible and glorified and transfigured Divine Body of God as United.

To me the logic of the "Second Coming" of The Christ is our own Christ in our flesh and the Divine Will of The Father in our soul, in The Holy Spirit being of our Body, in us, in our immoral and incorruptible Body delivered by the Ark of The New Covenant becoming glorified and transfigured into becoming the image of The Creator, God, The Father as united in being with all mankind, together with the Father and The Son.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Glaurung]

Is that why some Christians believe that after they die they will be raised to live life on earth forever and other Christians believe they will spend eternity in heaven?

Mainstream Christianity teaches that when you die you are separated from your physical body and summoned to face judgment before God. Those who have repented of their sins and have died in the grace of God will be sent to Heaven (or Purgatory according to Catholicism) and those who have died unrepentant and outside the grace of God are sent to Hell. At the Second Coming all will be physically resurrected in an immortal body after which we will continue with our eternal existence either in Heaven or in Hell.

 

[Twilight Hue]

My entire claim is that there is consensus at least theologically among most of the world's Christians.

No there is not. The thousands of existing denominations proves there is no consensus.