The Division in Christianity

[Trailblazer]

I'm not making any claims about what is true or not: only about what is taught by orthodox Christianity.

Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox?
Do you consider orthodox Christianity to be mainstream Christianity?

You said: Mainstream Christianity teaches that when you die you are separated from your physical body and summoned to face judgment before God. Those who have repented of their sins and have died in the grace of God will be sent to Heaven (or Purgatory according to Catholicism) and those who have died unrepentant and outside the grace of God are sent to Hell. At the Second Coming all will be physically resurrected in an immortal body after which we will continue with our eternal existence either in Heaven or in Hell.

So is the above what you believe happens when we die?

I haven't read any of your posts that weren't addressed to me.

Maybe you did not see post #36.

The Division in Christianity

A common sentiment I see here is the notion that Christianity is hopelessly divided in its teachings. That there are "thousands" of sects all of which teach mutually exclusive things. To be sure, the divisions are a scandal, but I think these divisions are often overstated. There is a historical...

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Baha'u'llah is not the only person in history to have claimed divinity. I see no reason to take his claims any more seriously than those of any other supposed godman or prophet.

You could not know if his claims are true unless you looked at the evidence that supports his claims....

Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for what is true.

"The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of reality. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy and sets us free from imitation and blind adherence to unexamined, dogmatic beliefs. Baha’is believe that no soul should follow ancestral or traditional beliefs without first questioning and examining their own inner landscape. Instead, the first Baha’i principle gives each individual the right and the duty to investigate and decide what they believe on their own."

Independent Investigation of Truth

The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of truth. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy.

bahaiteachings.org

The truth is your religion amounts to an obscure sect few have even heard of. If Baha'u'llah really was the Second Coming of Christ then I'm sad to say it has been a big nothingburger so far.

The smallness of the numbers has nothing to do with whether Baha'u'llah was who he claimed to be or not.
How many people do you think recognized Jesus in the first century after he walked the earth?

Throughout the first century the total number of Jews in the Christian movement probably never exceeded 1 000 and by the end of the century the Christian church was largely Gentile.
How many Jews became Christians in the first century? The ...

Also, the reason Christianity grew so fast after that is because Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond, even into Africa, but the church remained small and was persecuted. Then, after Constantine won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, and after that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish.

There is no way to know how long it will take for the Baha'i Faith to grow larger, but it will not grow the same way that Christianity grew because it cannot become an official religion associated with any government, nor can it grow through conquest, as happened with Islam. The only way the Baha'i Faith will grow is through Baha'is teaching the Faith, but it is very difficult for us because we are bucking a headwind given Christianity and Islam are not willing to give up their turf, and the same can be said for all the older religions. People normally only become Baha'is because they have the same vision, the oneness of humanity, the oneness of religion, and unity of mankind, and they want to be part of the solution to the world's spiritual, social, and economic problems. They do not become Baha'is because of a promise of heaven; although that is the natural outcome that is not why we do what we do.

I watched the video and I would affirm most of its content.

I'm glad.

 

[Lisa Sims]

Peace to all,

"Christian legend has it that Longinus was a blind Roman centurion who thrust the spear into Christ's side at the crucifixion. Some of Jesus's blood fell upon his eyes and he was healed. Upon this miracle Longinus believed in Jesus." Wikipedia, 2024

Jesus throws more light on his trial and crucifixion and supplies additional truths about his birth
"...And the same was true of the lancer, Coriginus, as he is called, who poked his lance into my heart to determine my death: he also became imbued with my teachings in the days that followed the Pentecost, and some others of the Roman soldiery were also affected..." Jesus, 5/17/1955

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series, 1914 to present. new-birth.net, soultruth.ca

"God is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him."

"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for."

"God is Love..."

Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...the time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024

Many Blessings...

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

True, we become transformed and become again transfigured through the Logic in the Power of The Divine Will of The Creator, God, The Father.

So true, and to me there are several Pentecosts in the bible.

We know peace on earth is the Kingdom of the Divine Will that the "Little Daughter of The Kingdom of the Divine Will" speaks of in her, in Louisa Piccarreta's writings.

To me, We have often been asked, does one have a personal relationship with Jesus? I always thought, hum, what does that mean? We get different answers, and to me the answer in logic is clearer to me as follows:

A personal relationship with Christ to me in logic is: Our Pentecost of the Body.

Our own Personal Pentecost, well pleasing to God, the Father.

To me in logic the infallible logic of the mind of God, His personal benefit as the Creator, and God the Father is:
The Creator in logic returned the love of lost life of the mortal flesh and defiled spirits in the souls of the Created Bodies of Adam and Eve for more love, the most love for all mankind to share on becoming transformed in own personal Christ in the flesh and spirit as our immortal and incorruptible Body in the soul of our being, St. Paul speaks of so much. and becoming Love eternal through the Power of The Holy Spirit Person through the Person of Jesus, the Word that became flesh, The Christ, and we as all mankind become again transfigured in the image of the Person of The Father, the Creator God, as one in being.

Peace to all,
Stephen Andrew

 

[shunyadragon]

Peace to all,

In logic, the only difference is Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin.

We know it is not God's fault, We know that being flesh, as failed immortal because with choice, we all would have done the same thing.

God said He will always provide the "Chosen" Sacrifice as authority.
In logic, What failed in created love is the fact that Adam gave up on his own authority for the spirit and life of Eve. Failed authority only created the greatest gift, love. Authority is restored in the Old Covenant as the Priestly authority with animal sacrifice and the New Covenant fulfilled priestly authority as Peter in the confession of Jesus is God, as sacrifice, placing him on the Moses seat for all of eternity. And the earthly priestly authority becomes Peter who passes the keys, the authority to the successors of St. Peter, the Pope, the earthly Priestly authority, the handpicked of God and the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

In logic to me, Non Orthodox believe we all would have done the same thing as Adam and Eve, thus creating love only to have it fulfilled by the Faith of Abraham and Isaac through The Christ. Jesus fulfills the failed love from Adam and Eve, the failed Authority and Spirit and Life of failed creation as resurrected Divine Eternal Life and Love all through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

The protestant revolution is another story, and in logic once a protest stops it returns from where it came.

To me, in logic, resolution in division that begins from the failure of Authority becomes resurrected by the Word that became Flesh, The Christ.

In Logic, Everyone by Will return home.

We know we want to keep open the Church for all mankind becoming one in being for all.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

You have failed to address the greatest schism of all concerning science' as described in post #33

 

[Kathryn]

Revelation 25: Jesus throws more light on his trial and crucifixion and supplies additional truths about his birth
"...And the same was true of the lancer, Coriginus, as he is called, who poked his lance into my heart to determine my death: he also became imbued with my teachings in the days that followed the Pentecost, and some others of the Roman soldiery were also affected..." Jesus, 5/17/1955

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series, 1914 to present. new-birth.net, soultruth.ca

"God is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him."

"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for."

"God is Love..."

Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...the time grows short There's and the work is great..." 4/21/2024

Many Blessings...

There's not a Revelation 25 in my bible or any other bible that I can find, though I did not click on your links.

 

[Lisa Sims]

There's not a Revelation 25 in my bible or any other bible that I can find,

Sorry Kathryn, I forgot to cite the link between Jesus' Second Coming Message Series and the Bible.

John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."

Blessings...
Lisa

 

[YellowFeather]

To know who the true Christian of God truly is one has to have full knowledge of the Word of God. Then they will know who is true and who is an antichrist pretending to believe in God and teach others the wrong way to God. When you know the word of God, you know the truth and no one can take it away.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me the logic, the general concensus, the eternal agenda, The Word that has always existed even before creation was ever created was even created was created is the Eternal Priestly Authority of all of "Big Bang" Chaos becoming Creation in Order, and is The Person in Power being what would God do in all cases of fulfilled Faith and Morality.

To me fiat is latin for "Let it be in the Power of the on in Control." To me the eternal power of unfailing creation is the intelligence that manifests eternity without failure. The logical question at hand to me in logic is. "What will never fail. What Will will never fail as the Will of The Father conceived in the beginning was is and always will be the Word, the Person of The Holy Spirit that became Flesh in the Word, the Person of Jesus with God in the beginning was is and always will be the Christ in all mankind as what would Jesus do in all cases to become again the Image of the Word, Person of the Father was is and always will be God.

"In the beginning was the Word, The Person of The Holy Spirit, and the Word was with God, The Person of Jesus, The Eternal Priestly Authotity, and the Word was God, The Person of The Father," as One in Being, all before creation was even created was ever created as The Trinity of The Godhead and now becoming Fulfilled Eternal Heaven and Earth, Heaven through the Power of the Person of The Holy Spirit.

The logic is the Word, one in the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father as The Body of God as transformed immortal ind incorruptible and united with all mankind sanctified and glorified in union transfigured becoming again the image of The Creator, God the Father, as one in being in all mankind.

Peace always,
Stephen andrew

 

[Lisa Sims]

So true, and to me there are several Pentecosts in the bible.

Our own Personal Pentecost, well pleasing to God, the Father.

This is beautiful, Stephen. I started a thread on this this morning.

Love and Blessings,
Lisa

 

[Lisa Sims]

Quaker worship is based on a few tenets, including silent waiting, group encounters with the divine, and a belief that God continues to communicate with people:

Beautiful synopsis and photo, S__! I forwarded your post to my Quaker/Friends worship group members this morning. They will love it!

Love and Blessings!
Lisa

 

[Baha'i observer]

What Christians seem to miss is that no written words of Jesus exist, so it is not possible to know what He actually taught. Paul is Not a substitute for Jesus. Paul was not even taught by Jesus. Paul was an effective teacher, but he was not taught by Jesus. Those are facts. As a result, the religion called Christianity is more Paul than Jesus.
There is no documentation from Jesus appointing a successor to maintain the purity and accuracy of His teachings. As a result, there is no unity in Christianity. There are some common threads and some similar beliefs, but little consistancy in the past 2,000 years. Can every person under the Christian umbrella, in the past 2,000 years, agree that Christ existed? I've read too much in my seventy years to believe that can be true. Statements such as "my God" and "their God" are evidence of lack of unity. We can only refer to: 'my ideas of God,' or 'what I think their ideas of God are.'

 

[Trailblazer]

What Christians seem to miss is that no written words of Jesus exist, so it is not possible to know what He actually taught. Paul is Not a substitute for Jesus. Paul was not even taught by Jesus. Paul was an effective teacher, but he was not taught by Jesus. Those are facts. As a result, the religion called Christianity is more Paul than Jesus.
There is no documentation from Jesus appointing a successor to maintain the purity and accuracy of His teachings. As a result, there is no unity in Christianity. There are some common threads and some similar beliefs, but little consistancy in the past 2,000 years. Can every person under the Christian umbrella, in the past 2,000 years, agree that Christ existed? I've read too much in my seventy years to believe that can be true. Statements such as "my God" and "their God" are evidence of lack of unity. We can only refer to: 'my ideas of God,' or 'what I think their ideas of God are.'

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I am kind of the resident Baha'i here because I post so much. I was not raised as a Christian or believing in God.
I became a Baha'i when I was 17 and that was about 54 years ago.

What I have learned about the Bible and Christianity I learned from reading and posting on this forum and other religious forums.
I never even read one page of the Bible till age 60!

 

[Trailblazer]

What Christians seem to miss is that no written words of Jesus exist, so it is not possible to know what He actually taught. Paul is Not a substitute for Jesus. Paul was not even taught by Jesus. Paul was an effective teacher, but he was not taught by Jesus. Those are facts. As a result, the religion called Christianity is more Paul than Jesus.

That is very true. Below is an excerpt from a thread I started some time ago.

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….
This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and...

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[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

My understanding is Saint Paul gave the Pentecost to the gentiles because they had a temple for every God and they even had one was the temple of the unknown God whom he took the opportunity to their unknown God and introduced Him as Christ.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

In logic to me, it’s the logical Trinity of the body from created mortal and corrupt to becoming immortal and incorruptible to becoming again glorified and transfigured into the image of the creator God, the Father together as one and being.

Peace to all,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

And in logic, To me the Pentecost of the IIn an order for Mary to die and resurrect, glorified and transfigured, she was baptized by her son Christ.mmaculate Conception when Mary said “May it be done to me in accordance with Your Will”,when Mary became immortal and incorruptible in 0 AD Anno Dominic at the beginning of the church time near the birth of Christ. In an order for Mary to die and resurrect, glorified and transfigured, she was baptized by her son Christ.

Peace always

 

[Lisa Sims]

"Christian legend has it that Longinus was a blind Roman centurion who thrust the spear into Christ's side at the crucifixion. Some of Jesus's blood fell upon his eyes and he was healed. Upon this miracle Longinus believed in Jesus." Wikipedia, 2024

Hi Stephen,

I found another reference to Longinus in the Messages. It's from Jesus (from Spirit) and came this year.

The Sacred Heart
"...Longinus, who pierced my heart on the day of my crucifixion and saw water and blood, later became a follower and is now a Celestial angel...He felt the Love of God despite his job to make sure I had passed, and it sent him into deep prayer, partially from remorse but more importantly to feel the Love of God..." Jesus, 3/11/2024

Blessings,
Lisa

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Today. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net... Always backed up by the Holy Bible, the most spiritual book ever written...before the Second Coming Messages.

John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."

"God is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him”

"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for”

"God is Love..."

This is Jesus' teaching of the Re-birth to Divinity and Immortality through God's Love, which he prayed for and received himself (in contrast to "Adam's" refusal), and demonstrated the gifts obtained by it in his own person.

Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...The time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024

Romans 5:5 “...And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His Love into our hearts through His Holy Spirit, which He has given us…”

2 Peter 1:4 “...through… (Jesus)...He has given to us the precious and magnificent promises, so that… (by them)... you might become Partakers of the Divine Nature, having escaped the decay in the world caused by sinful desires…” (John Wesley's personal enlightenment verse)

1 John 3:9 “...Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God…”

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The fact that there is no consensus in the religion proves otherwise. Christianity unified worldwide with one unified faith would impress me over a possibility of communication with a god as it would distinguish itself as no other religion can in terms of division.

Clearly it isn't the case, which was a core reason I dropped the faith and ultimately theism altogether.

It is pretty unified, though. Almost all denominations accept the Nicene Creed which out the fundamentals of Christian belief. Even Protestants do. Groups like JWs and Mormons are in entirely different categories.

 

[blü 2]

What spurred this thread was a comment by a user in another thread created by a JW. The claim is that Christians can't agree on anything therefore Christianity must be bogus. I reject this premise. Historical Christian orthodoxy is fairly well defined across most of the mainstream traditions. That there are a multitude of cults (and yes, I consider Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses to be cults) does not prove the non-veracity of Christian orthodoxy.

Surely it's impossible to prove the veracity ─ the objective truthfulness ─ of any religion's supernatural claims, including Christianity's?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is pretty unified, though. Almost all denominations accept the Nicene Creed which out the fundamentals of Christian belief. Even Protestants do. Groups like JWs and Mormons are in entirely different categories.

The Nicene Creed is far from universally accepted. By most? Certainly, after all Catholicism is the largest denomination, plus others. But there are enough naysayers to cause serious problems.

One note: I know you say that "JWs and Mormons are in entirely different categories," and my guess that you are saying they are not Christians. However, they believe Jesus is the Messiah who died for their sins. They are certainly not Muslims, or Buddhists, or Hindus. It certainly appears to me that they are simply Christians that you don't like and who deviate from the bell shaped curve.

To begin with, we first have to ask, which Nicene creed? The one the Orthodox use that does not have the filioque? Or the Catholic version which does?

Then you have the Lutheran church, that took it upon themselves to rewrite the Creed, changing the world Catholic to Christian.

You also have a great many Protestant churches that want nothing to do with it, because they consider it "a tradition of men." They are very put off by it being a Catholic/Orthodox creation. They prefer to create their own unique statements of faith.

Now let's look at issues with items within it.

"We believe in One God." Right here, a major denomination, the LDS, do not agree. They are henotheists, meaning they believe in many gods, but worship only one.

There is a portion of the Creed that reads in some translations as (referring to Jesus) "consubstantial with the Father" and in other translations as "one in being with the father." The word in Greek is homoousios, and simply has no comparable word in English, but very roughly means something that is of the same substance or same essence. The problem here is that there are Christians who do not agree with this. Besides various individual Christians that I have encountered on these sorts of forums, we have an entire denomination that does not believe Jesus is God: the Jehovah's Witnesses.

"I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church." I have already mentioned how Lutherans edited catholic to Christian. But another issue here is "apostolic." This word has a number of different meanings today, but ONLY ONE when this was written. Apostolic succession is the idea that the Apostles granted teaching authority to the presbyteroi (presbyters) and episkopoi (bishops) by the laying on of hands aka ordination. These in turn passed on that authority to those they themselves laid hands upon. And so on, and so on, in an unbroken chain that survives up to today. So when the phrase above says, "apostolic Church," it is referring to those churches that transfer the teaching authority of the Apostles via the laying on of hands. Quite frankly, every Protestant denomination (except perhaps the Anglicans) broke with this tradition.

"I confess one Baptism." There are many Protestant churches that not only rebaptise those who were baptised as children, but who ALSO do multiple baptisms on adults. I've met Christians who as adults have been baptised 3 or 4 times, because they do another baptism every time they have "backslidden" and then repented, and others that get rebaptized simply for changing churches, because the first church "used the wrong formula." And then there are those denominations who say baptism is optional, and one (the Quakers) who say it is wrong to use water baptism at all.

"Baptism for the forgiveness of sins." Quite frankly, except for perhaps the Anglicans, Protestants simply don't believe this. They completely reject this claim that baptism is salvific.