The Division in Christianity

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me the logic of Baptism is a sacrament of death to New life in that Baptism allows the body becoming transformed incorruptible and immortal from Baptism from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being to be able to transform through death and resurrection and become again gloriously transfigured.

To me the logic is what is Baptism that conforms to the teachings. Jesus is conceived by The Holy Spirit Person through the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth of The Christ. The Christ is The Person of Jesus in the flesh manifested by the person of the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus, together become the Christ, immortal and incorruptible. The logic follows to me, Jesus Virgin Birth is born without blood and water for blood and water birth creates the Soul but the soul of Jesus is preexestent before creation was ever created was even created. Baptism is a sacrament of death to life along with Penance. Christ birth is from the cross where His blood and water flowed for all mankind. The Baptized and immortal and incorruptible Body of the "First" Christ opens the gates of Heaven for the Body of Christ in all mankind. In logic to me, we are reborn just like Our Brother, The Christ from the cross. Jesus Holy Spirit Soul is sanctified, but His flesh is mortal and eternal and without Baptism His flesh and spirit will never die. Baptism is a sacrament of death to New Life and is from the spirit through the flesh or the soul of the being in the Body of Christ in all mankind. Baptism is the Sacrament of Death to New Life and we become sanctified from the spirit through the flesh for the Soul of the Christ as shared in

all mankind. the Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River by St John the Baptist for Christ is what makes the soul "Pleasing to God." God said, "Behold My Son in whom I am well pleased." Baptized and sanctified is the state of the being of Jesus sanctified from The Holy Spirit Will of God through the Baptized Flesh of Jesus becomes the Baptized Christ for the Souls of all mankind. We become Baptized immortal and incorruptible only to be able to die and resurrect glorified and transfigured into the image of the Creator God, for The Father just like The Christ. The Epiphany of The Christ through the Baptism of John for the Body of The Christ is the manifestation of God in Man complete from the Holy Spirit through the flesh of The Christ in all mankind for the souls to become again. We become again as re-Confirmed sanctified through the Sacrifice and Penance, sorrow, atonement for the remission of sin in absolution and Communion with Him from immortal and incorruptible to become again united as one in being together with The Father and The Son glorified and transfigured pleasing to God is all mankind united as one.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Glaurung]

Surely it's impossible to prove the veracity ─ the objective truthfulness ─ of any religion's supernatural claims, including Christianity's?

I think some religions are more credible than others. But in any case, I have no pretentions of being able to "prove" Catholic Christianity, especially in a culture predisposed to reject it.

I myself have struggled with faith (still do) but I think there's real truth to Christianity's claims about God, the human soul and morality. Why I think that would need to be its own thread. (Should I ever feel inclined to write it).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It certainly appears to me that they are simply Christians that you don't like and who deviate from the bell shaped curve.

Oh, please. There's definitely boundaries. There's no way "Christian Identity" white supremacists are Christians, either. I don't view Mormonism as Christian. It's more akin to Scientology to me - a cult founded by a (racist) con artist. They're also polytheists but hate admitting it. They lie about their theology to outsiders all the time, because they're embarrased of it. They think the Father has a physical body, the Trinity are three different beings working together and that humans can become the gods of their own planets and make lots of spirit babies in the afterlife. Not to mention the polygamy thing, which they only dropped in a deal with the US government so Utah could become a state. They also idolize the heterosexual nuclear family, even to the point of harassing members who are single because they don't allow for celibacy. And obviously the racism, especially towards African-descended people, which was never retracted (just superceded in a way, like Jehovah was a racist but then his mind). None of that has anything to do with Christianity, even among minority sects.

As for JWs, I would say they're Christians of a sort but they would be called heretics (sorry for being non-PC), traditionally. It's similar to Arianianism.

Also,

The Nicene Creed is far from universally accepted.

I didn't say that. I said the vast majority of Christians accept it. The others are tiny in number. Let's stop acting like Christianity is a chaotic meaningless mishmash that can't be defined and only depends on some vague "belief in Jesus" as the criteria. Like it's not actually a religion. I'm pretty sure you don't accept Black Hebrew Israelites or Jews for Jesus as your co-religionists, after all.

 

[blü 2]

I think some religions are more credible than others. But in any case, I have no pretentions of being able to "prove" Catholic Christianity, especially in a culture predisposed to reject it.

I myself have struggled with faith (still do) but I think there's real truth to Christianity's claims about God, the human soul and morality. Why I think that would need to be its own thread. (Should I ever feel inclined to write it).

I set out my position here>What does God want from you?<.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There's no way "Christian Identity" white supremacists are Christians, either.

Oh yes, they are. It does you no good to make an argument from purity. This isn't your first rodeo. I'm sure you are quite familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

You may be familiar with the Poway shooter, John Earnest, who fatally shot one woman and injured three other persons, including the synagogues' rabbi, at Chabad of Poway. It would have been a bloodbath except that his gun jammed and he ran.

Rev. Mika Edmondson, a pastor in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church where John Earnest (the Poway shooter) was a member, wrote an article that greatly impacted me. First you should know that this pastor is Black. It stupefied him to learn that Earnest had been radicalized into White Nationalism WITHIN HIS CHURCH. This was a very typical Presbyterian Church, sola scriptura, sola fide, calvinism. When this pastor spent time with Earnest, he couldn't understand it--Earnest was a true believer who had all his theology correct. How does someone like that become a White Nationalist? And yet that is exactly what happened.

Rev Edmondson concluded in his article that Evangelical churches needed to address racism head on. The status quo of sermons on Paul and Jesus were not enough. He said lack of response to racism inevitably leads to its rise.

I don't view Mormonism as Christian. It's more akin to Scientology to me - a cult founded by a (racist) con artist.

I share your belief that both these religions were started by self serving liars. However, that's where the comparison ends. Scientology does not claim that Jesus was the messiah who died for the sins of the world. Mormonism does.

As for JWs, I would say they're Christians of a sort but they would be called heretics (sorry for being non-PC), traditionally. It's similar to Arianianism.

Yes. And Arianism is a christian heresy. What that means is that Arians ARE Christians, but teach a heresy. They are not identified with apostates, which are those who leave the church.

I'm pretty sure you don't accept Black Hebrew Israelites or Jews for Jesus as your co-religionists, after all.

Black Hebrew Israelites don't claim to be practicing Judaism, nor do they have anything to do with Jews, whom they consider "fake."

Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish churches are a different case. They actually DO claim to be an arm of Judaism, but in fact are CHRISTIANS. Why do I say this? Because they believe the following, which are clearly Christian teachings and not Jewish teachings:

• They believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the promised Jewish Messiah, a core Christian belief. They affirm that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection are the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies found in the Hebrew Scriptures.
• They believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, rather than through adherence to the Torah or Jewish laws. This concept mirrors the foundational Christian doctrine that faith in Jesus brings redemption and eternal life.
• All the major MJ denominations (UMJC, MJAA, Jews for Jesus) believe in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons.
• Messianic Jews accept the New Testament as part of their scriptural canon alongside the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), viewing the writings of the apostles as divinely inspired.
• They believe that Jesus' death on the cross was an atoning sacrifice for humanity's sins, fulfilling the sacrificial system outlined in the Torah. This aligns with the Christian belief that Jesus is the ultimate sacrificial Lamb.

It is extraordinarily rare for any group to lie and say they belong to a group which they don't. But that is exactly the case here.

If you can identify some other given religion that the doctrines of the LDS or JW identify them as, please let me know what that other religion is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Rev. Mika Edmondson, a pastor in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church where John Earnest (the Poway shooter) was a member, wrote an article that greatly impacted me. First you should know that this pastor is Black. It stupefied him to learn that Earnest had been radicalized into White Nationalism WITHIN HIS CHURCH. This was a very typical Presbyterian Church, sola scriptura, sola fide, calvinism. When this pastor spent time with Earnest, he couldn't understand it--Earnest was a true believer who had all his theology correct. How does someone like that become a White Nationalist? And yet that is exactly what happened.

I'm not taking about members of mainstream churches radicalized into racial supremacism. Those are sinning Christians, I would say. Christian Identity is a white supremacist religion and they support terrorism:

Christian Identity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's what I was saying is something outside of Christianity, although they may "believe in Jesus". Even the Jesus they believe in is not the same Jesus found in Christianity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not taking about members of mainstream churches radicalized into racial supremacism. Those are sinning Christians, I would say. Christian Identity is a white supremacist religion and they support terrorism:

Christian Identity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's what I was saying is something outside of Christianity, although they may "believe in Jesus". Even the Jesus they believe in is not the same Jesus found in Christianity.

I'm not suggesting that White supremacy is a Christian doctrine. And I affirm that almost every Christian denomination condemns this. All I'm saying is that someone can be a true Christian and be a White supremacist.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not suggesting that White supremacy is a Christian doctrine. And I affirm that almost every Christian denomination condemns this. All I'm saying is that someone can be a true Christian and be a White supremacist.

What do you mean by a "true Christian"? There's multiple verses in the NT where Jesus makes it clear that there's a certain standard to being a disciple of his and he won't recognize you as one if you don't follow the standard. There's similar verses in the NT letters and Revelation. It's like saying you can be a "true Christian" and a neo-Nazi. You really can't, if you think the two are compatible because it - neo-Nazism and racism in general - is antithetical to Christianity. At that point, you've basically placed yourself outside of Christianity. So it's a bit more nuanced an issue. It's really no different than you believing that there's a standard to meet to be considered Jewish. Every religion has this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What do you mean by a "true Christian"?

"True Christian" is an expression used by some Christians (not me) to indicate anyone who claims to be a Christian but they don't think is good enough.

Person A: No Christian would ever persecute Jews.
Person B: But Christians carried out all sorts of pogroms against the Jews.
Person A: No TRUE Christian would ever persecute Jews.

Classic argument from purity--a well known fallacy.