The fall of man; Free will

[Thief]

Post #379 is a good example of evasion and misdirection....
cherry picking at it's worst.

Back to topic.
Man was created with freewill.
It was never removed.

Man did not fall in the Garden...he stood up.

The acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil was needful.

And yes Jesus spoke to all when He said....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Consequence....
It will be done unto you as you did unto others.

You are free to chose.

 

[waitasec]

Post #379 is a good example of evasion and misdirection....
cherry picking at it's worst.

Back to topic.
Man was created with freewill.
It was never removed.

Man did not fall in the Garden...he stood up.

The acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil was needful.

And yes Jesus spoke to all when He said....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Consequence....
It will be done unto you as you did unto others.

You are free to chose.

right your BS begets more BS...

ahh so now the subject has changed

do you want to be childish and start a new thread...?
why avoid the question?

was JC talking to you in matthew 16;28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. as well as in
matthew 5:17-20 “for i tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” or in luke 18:18-22 18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother." "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

well?

or is it too hot for the hot tub?


a thief picks and chooses what he wants to steal

 

[waitasec]

Post #379 is a good example of evasion and misdirection....
cherry picking at it's worst.

Back to topic.
Man was created with freewill.
It was never removed.

Man did not fall in the Garden...he stood up.

The acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil was needful.

And yes Jesus spoke to all when He said....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Consequence....
It will be done unto you as you did unto others.

You are free to chose.

i NEVER said mans free will was removed
I SAID MANS FREE WILL IS A SIN...
so are you going to use YOUR free WILL and cherry pick what YOU WANT to believe or FOLLOW gods will and live like an animal...?

you are free to choose

 

[Thief]

Choices ....choices ...choices....

Shall I talk about apples or pick cherries with you?

The Carpenter's words apply to all.
As if you were standing there when they were spoken.

As we live, we have choices to make...yes we do.

But ultimately, that one choice that really counts for something doesn't belong to us.
It belongs to God and the angels.
They pick and chose, who will follow...who will be left behind.

Are the cherries bitter?
Want some sugar?

 

[waitasec]

Post #379 is a good example of evasion and misdirection....
cherry picking at it's worst.

Back to topic.
Man was created with freewill.
It was never removed.

Man did not fall in the Garden...he stood up.

The acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil was needful.

And yes Jesus spoke to all when He said....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Consequence....
It will be done unto you as you did unto others.

You are free to chose.

Choices ....choices ...choices....

Shall I talk about apples or pick cherries with you?

The Carpenter's words apply to all.
As if you were standing there when they were spoken.

As we live, we have choices to make...yes we do.

But ultimately, that one choice that really counts for something doesn't belong to us.
It belongs to God and the angels.
They pick and chose, who will follow...who will be left behind.

Are the cherries bitter?
Want some sugar?

luke 18:22 Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

ok well then SELL EVERYTHING and deposit it into paypal account;

483-5653-47-66-968

my amex card is almost maxed...thanx:slap:

 

[it's_sam]

Ya know I think what your missing is the people he was having follow him were under the rule of opressors and he was trying to give them a better quality of life. So yes if this is true i would say the same. Nothing those people give you is worthe it, sell it all and follow me.

 

[waitasec]

Ya know I think what your missing is the people he was having follow him were under the rule of opressors and he was trying to give them a better quality of life. So yes if this is true i would say the same. Nothing those people give you is worthe it, sell it all and follow me.

sam, he was talking to a rich person i don't think oppression was the issue here, if anything this guy was the oppressor ...
Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

thief fails to realize he's the one who decides what scriptures are for now and for then...hogwash

On the contrary...
Each one of the parables...as well as many of His public speeches ARE aimed
at anyone and everyone.

What...you didn't notice?
Your plea of ignorance is gone.

I am a thief.....you know.

since i opened your eyes to your materialism, i think you owe me for showing you the error of your ways, what is $$$ compared to eternal life?

 

[it's_sam]

key word is EVERYTHING even your art...sorry bud it's not that easy to take up your cross, is it?
what? are you going to risk heaven for your art?

BTW im not being opressed by a bunch of mongrels. Im opressed enough but really... where am I gonna go? Jesus isnt here showing me a place to follow so im just spossed to sell it all and wander off? cmon now.

 

[it's_sam]

sam, he was talking to a rich person i don't think oppression was the issue here, if anything this guy was the oppressor ...
Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

He was opressed by his greed and love for materials. Or rather his focus in life was to get more stuff and more money. This is not my focus in life. sorry.

 

[Willamena]

are you going to sell everything you have? lk 18:18-22
since...
"The now that is now, not then, is the very same now that was then, not now"
selling everything applies to you NOW, right?

go ahead and put the cash in my paypal account :slap:

I'm not going to literally sell everything I have because of a parable, no; and the parable is as true and applicable to me, here, now, as it was then, to them.

 

[Thief]

Apparently we will not be able to return to the Garden.

At least one person has scripture 'issues'.

Did anyone stop to consider...it's not the money that would keep a rich man out of heaven?

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle ....than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Now...would you like to back to the Garden....or flip coins?

 

[waitasec]

I'm not going to literally sell everything I have because of a parable, no; and the parable is as true and applicable to me, here, now, as it was then, to them.

it wasn't a parable...it was a commandment JC gave a ruler
so are you going to follow his commandment or not? why wouldn't this apply to you today then? what was it that you said,
"The now that is now, not then, is the very same now that was then, not now"

if i understand you correctly this commandment applies to NOW and for everybody that believes, right?

or lets make this clearer;

matthew 16;28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

this was actually a conversation JC had with his disciples INTENDED FOR his disciples that some of them will still be alive in the 2nd coming

 

[waitasec]

I'm not going to literally sell everything I have because of a parable, no; and the parable is as true and applicable to me, here, now, as it was then, to them.

Apparently we will not be able to return to the Garden.

At least one person has scripture 'issues'.

Did anyone stop to consider...it's not the money that would keep a rich man out of heaven?

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle ....than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Now...would you like to back to the Garden....or flip coins?

follow JC's commandments then
if it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle then why are you holding on to your material possessions?
sell it...I NEED THE $$$

put your money where your mouth is

who is cherry picking the scriptures here...looks like you are
where's your faith then?

 

[waitasec]

BTW im not being opressed by a bunch of mongrels. Im opressed enough but really... where am I gonna go? Jesus isnt here showing me a place to follow so im just spossed to sell it all and wander off? cmon now.

thats what he said, are you going to second guess GOD
where is your faith?

if you sold everything...god will see you through, RIGHT?
what is art or $$$ compared to your eternal soul

 

[Willamena]

it wasn't a parable...it was a commandment JC gave a ruler
so are you going to follow his commandment or not? why wouldn't this apply to you today then? what was it that you said,
"The now that is now, not then, is the very same now that was then, not now"

if i understand you correctly this commandment applies to NOW and for everybody that believes, right?

or lets make this clearer;

matthew 16;28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

this was actually a conversation JC had with his disciples INTENDED FOR his disciples that some of them will still be alive in the 2nd coming

Luke 18 is a selection of parables.

Luke 18 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

 

[waitasec]

Luke 18 is a selection of parables.

Luke 18 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

wrong. the parable of of the persistent widow
and the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector preceded vs 1-17

Vs 18-22 goes like this; he's having a conversation with someone not speaking in parables read it...

18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

:thud: yup....you owe me BIG TIME

 

[Willamena]

You and I are that certain ruler.

 

[waitasec]

You and I are that certain ruler.

shoot, i thought i had a shot at making some dough....
will you reconsider...please

 

[jonman122]

You and I are that certain ruler.

since i'm not one of those rulers, you could give it to me instead

 

[dmgdnooc]

It appears that there is some misunderstanding about the things that Jesus said to 'a certain ruler'.
It is being imagined that the particular need of that particular person is applicable to everyone.
　
The argument that all should give away everthing is of the same order of falseness as the one that requires all Christians to lose a hand or an eye; it is made by the faithless and is only valid to another of the faithless.
Bringing the argument to a Christian forum displays a gross lack of understanding because only another athiest could be so lacking in understanding as to accept it as valid.
　
Jesus often spoke to people as individuals and required different things of different people.
One was required to not attend his father's funeral, another to not dispute over an inheritance, the list goes on.
　
Read on a little in Luke and you will meet another rich man named Zacchaeus who was not required to give away any thing at all before Jesus would sit and eat with him.
Zacchaeus voluntarily gave away his pride in order to catch a glimpse of Jesus as he passed, and that was enough in his case.
　
It is not a matter of 'cherry picking the scripture' it is a matter of applying the same sensitivity of understanding to the scriptures that one would apply when reading Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Joyce or any great work of literature that deals with the complexities of human nature.
　
One might as well not read the Bible, Shakespeare etc if one's understanding is limited to the mechanical and mundane. Its like, imo, a child who imagines he can build a house because he has learnt how to hammer a nail.
　
I too would prefer that the discussion returned to Eden.