The fall of man; Free will

[Kilgore Trout]

Saying you don't need proof when you have faith, is like saying you don't need chemotherapy when you're in denial about your cancer.

 

[waitasec]

Self defeat?.... as in making denial all of your life...only to find yourself standing among angels...not happy about your words.

It is an evil generation that ask for a sign..none shall be given.

And faith is defined as an item that does not require proof.

the only thing is SEE in action with religious faith is
judgement and control
helping the needy is not exclusive to religious faith

so what is going to make your faith stand out

a lot of hot air, perhaps

 

[waitasec]

My faith is that everyone can understand this in their own way, my path is helping people get to that point. My feet are in your mind because you have let me in. My mind is talking to your thoughts as we speak because you have seen my words and your subcontious knows it. Just because I have not left my chair does not mean I havnt "moved". The need is "help me believe" my want is "OK". My faith has been proven and like I keep saying doesnt need more proof then I have. I search for more to bring more to the same thoughts of unity and teamwork. But again you dont have to believe im telling the truth when i say this because to you it isnt real. This is the seperation I was talking about in understanding your place. You think im delluded and have no proof otherwise, so my statements dont have precidence but only to you and only because of your current understanding of the situation.

this goes for you too, not personally...keep that in mind

the only thing is SEE in action with religious faith is
judgement and control
helping the needy is not exclusive to religious faith

so what is going to make your faith stand out

a lot of hot air, perhaps

 

[Willamena]

Saying you don't need proof when you have faith, is like saying you don't need chemotherapy when you're in denial about your cancer.

Saying that you need proof of what you have faith in is like saying you need tomorrow's sun to rise today.

 

[it's_sam]

the only thing is SEE in action with religious faith is
judgement and control
helping the needy is not exclusive to religious faith

so what is going to make your faith stand out

a lot of hot air, perhaps

So your suggesting what? I listen to your little remarks about what jesus did WAY back then just to show to you that Im convicted in my faith? No thanks. If you want a monkey to dance for you I suggest you head to the nearest jungle. Have you offered anything to us other then hot air? My hot air atleast had a purpose for help even if it wasnt taken. Is your hot air now more substantial because it isnt mine? Whats your point man? out with it.

 

[Thief]

wrong, for 1 faith is not an item it's a term, and it's not saying that it doesn't require proof, it's saying that if you have faith you have absolutely no proof that what your saying is true, you just believe it to be true.

Thats faith. Not "oh i have faith i don't need proof now!"

See Webster's

 

[jonman122]

Saying that you need proof of what you have faith in is like saying you need tomorrow's sun to rise today.

he never said he needs proof of what you have faith in, more like proof is much better than faith because then you actually have some solid ground on which to perch yourself, rather than having literally no substantial argument as to why you have faith in what you have faith in.

 

[waitasec]

So your suggesting what? I listen to your little remarks about what jesus did WAY back then just to show to you that Im convicted in my faith? No thanks. If you want a monkey to dance for you I suggest you head to the nearest jungle. Have you offered anything to us other then hot air? My hot air atleast had a purpose for help even if it wasnt taken. Is your hot air now more substantial because it isnt mine? Whats your point man? out with it.

i didn't tell you to your lord did
isn't the word of god eternal and infallible doesn't it concern you now as it did then....where is your faith?

who said having faith is easy?

 

[dmgdnooc]

i did. if you are referring to passages in the bible.
the rich ruler wanted to know how to get to heaven, JC relplied sell everything...



matthew 19…
Is the same story as luke 18
but it gets very interesting as you read on...

Luke 18:26 "Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."


this is about LIVING in faith…how can you stand there and tell me you have faith when all you are saying is you believe….show us non believers how you believe, other than getting into other peoples business. have you sold everything in order to live by faith that god will provide? have you left your family and friends to spread the good news? show us your faith. how do i know my parents love me, can you prove love…absolutely. not by words alone but by action…where’s the action of faith in the believers?

　

　
no worries




　
the transfiguration happened 6 days later
are you going to tell me some of those people that heard JC speak about the transfiguration died within those 6 days, come on.







thank you for that.)(

The 'certain ruler' asked 'what shall I do'
Jesus replied 'thou lackest one thing'
Can you note the use of the singular pronouns 'I' and 'thou'.
This was a personal conversation, continuing to assert that it has universal application will be seen as a breach of the laws of grammar. A fineable offence.
　
Zacchaeus was invited into Jesus' company before his public liberality.
He was only required to climb a tree.
Do you suggest that every Christian must climb a tree before being permitted to enter into Jesus' company?
　
The list of things that could be left, in Matt 19, is incomplete (it does not include the riches of the 'certain ruler' or any riches at all and I find no mention of tree-climbing either).
And pls note the list is this OR that etc. Not this AND that.
The requirement is that a thing be left 'for the sake of the kingdom of God.
　
Jesus said that 'There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom'
The transfiguration happened 6 days later, neither Peter, James or John had died in those 6 days. They were the ones 'standing here' who did not 'taste of death' before they saw the event.
Peter confirms that he saw the 'coming' in his epistle.
　
The requirement is that SOME of those there not die.
It is not said who did or did not die in those 6 days; it does not say it because it is not an issue of relevance to the verse.
　
You have no idea of what I have left or given away for the sake of the kingdom of God.
You have no insight into my liberality or the measures, well shaken, that I have provided to others.
And I am not obliged to tell you.
That you assume my sacrifices for Jesus' name sake are zero is a reflection on yourself not me.
　
What business of other people have I intruded into?
Seems you think you know more of me than I know myself. Hubris, imo.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Saying that you need proof of what you have faith in is like saying you need tomorrow's sun to rise today.

No, it's like saying you need to sun to rise tomorrow. Then again, this touches more on the semantical variations of the word faith than the difference between proof and the context of faith I was commenting on (unsubstantiated belief).

 

[jonman122]

See Webster's

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[1][2] The word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general.
As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."[3][4] Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used in place of "trust" or "belief."


from wikipedia, rather than websters.

 

[Thief]

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.[1][2] The word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general.
As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."[3][4] Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used in place of "trust" or "belief."


from wikipedia, rather than websters.

"Firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof."
Webster's

I do question what I believe in.
If you've been reading my posts in other threads...you know this.
So...when I say I believe...I found cause to do so.

I suppose you need a photograph or a fingerprint.

 

[Willamena]

No, it's like saying you need to sun to rise tomorrow.

The way I see it, that's faith, not proof of the thing you have faith in.

 

[it's_sam]

I suppose you need a photograph or a fingerprint.

Seem like the only thing that would make everyone happy. But how long untill the photograph came into question? Instantly id imagine and same things all over again.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The way I see it, that's faith, not proof of the thing you have faith in.

If you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, then the sun rising tomorrow will be proof that what you had faith in was true.

Then again, not really the point, as the sun rising tomorrow requires so little faith, as to be irrelevant.

 

[waitasec]

　
Zacchaeus was invited into Jesus' company before his public liberality.
He was only required to climb a tree.
Do you suggest that every Christian must climb a tree before being permitted to enter into Jesus' company?

it doesn't take faith to climb a tree, does it? unless your AFRAID of heights... which in this case wasn't mentioned
　

Jesus said that 'There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom'
The transfiguration happened 6 days later, neither Peter, James or John had died in those 6 days. They were the ones 'standing here' who did not 'taste of death' before they saw the event.
Peter confirms that he saw the 'coming' in his epistle.

so who were the some that died?
　

The requirement is that SOME of those there not die.
It is not said who did or did not die in those 6 days; it does not say it because it is not an issue of relevance to the verse.

why even mention death to those listening... because the second coming was to happen within their life time
　

You have no idea of what I have left or given away for the sake of the kingdom of God.
You have no insight into my liberality or the measures, well shaken, that I have provided to others.
And I am not obliged to tell you.
That you assume my sacrifices for Jesus' name sake are zero is a reflection on yourself not me.

nor do i want to...that is your business...not mine...you live according to your convictions and live a dignified life
what i am saying ismy experiences with the christian religion is that the only action of faith is judgement and control

how is your christian faith going to stand out without any action, whatever that may be?

i'm guessing the easy way and the self defeating way...words

'god' and 'faith' are just words

show what it means to follow jesus...that is what the lunatic, revolutionary jesus asked for...so for you, whatever it is, keep doing it...

What business of other people have I intruded into?
Seems you think you know more of me than I know myself. Hubris, imo.

the right to gay marriage...for instance

 

[waitasec]

The way I see it, that's faith, not proof of the thing you have faith in.

faith without action is what...?
a word

 

[it's_sam]

why even mention death to those listening... because the second coming was to happen within their life time

If life continues after death was he lying?

 

[jonman122]

If life continues after death was he lying?

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

do you even understand what that word implies?

and yes it would imply that he lied, because he said "the second coming of christ," and the original coming of christ was to earth, where is he even coming if he's already there in heaven?

 

[waitasec]

If life continues after death was he lying?

is that your out clause?
keeping everything open ended...

are there any absolutes jesus spoke of?