The fall of man; Free will

[it's_sam]

The way I see it is there is two kinda of people in this. Those who act like "ill believe it when I see it" implying the possibility might be real but you require more support to back it up. Then there is those that act like "ill see it when I believe it" implying you dont offer any support in any way to the idea, and it wont be believed till it's standing right infront of them "maybe even not then if they dont understand what they are looking at".

 

[Willamena]

If you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, then the sun rising tomorrow will be proof that what you had faith in was true.

Then again, not really the point, as the sun rising tomorrow requires so little faith, as to be irrelevant.

Quantifying faith doesn't affect the example - and the example you give is the one I gave.


Proof happens here, now; so requiring this "proof" is requiring tomorrow's sun to rise today, here, now.

(Hence, you'll never have "proof", because tomorrow's sun will always be tomorrow.)

 

[jonman122]

Quantifying faith doesn't affect the example - and the example you give is the one I gave.


Proof happens here, now; so requiring this "proof" is requiring tomorrow's sun to rise today, here, now.

every morning we see the sun rise, and in fact the sun rising has nothing to do with it because the sun isn't circling the earth, the earth is rotating and circling the sun, so what your implying is completely irrelevent because we can observe the sun 24/7 without the need to watch for its "rise"

 

[it's_sam]

is that your out clause?
keeping everything open ended...

are there any absolutes jesus spoke of?

HAHA no im sorry a closed mind is what you seek to purge in religious people. Because what kind of fight would they put up? Your "impending" views would win over their knowledge simply because4 you found a way to make it so. Does this make you right in your assumption? Its as possible jesus didnt exist as he did exist, but you hold fast to the later rather then "keep an open mind". So yes it is my out claus because EVERYTHING is open if your willing to take the steps.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Proof happens here, now; so requiring this "proof" is requiring tomorrow's sun to rise today, here, now.

Sorry, but tomorrow's sun rising today would, in fact, work against one's faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. The sun rising twice today, would nullify all past experience of the sun and earth interacting in a predictable way, by, for once, acting in a way which fell outside of that predictability, thereby causing any faith in its future behavior to be weaker than when it was predictable.

Additionally, sometimes proof requires some patience, as the universe doesn't respond to peoples' beck and call. If I want proof that the sun will rise tomorrow - I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see if it rises.

 

[it's_sam]

Additionally, sometimes proof requires some patience, as the universe doesn't respond to peoples' beck and call. If I want proof that the sun will rise tomorrow - I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see if it rises.

With what we know about the cosmos it isnt garaunteed that it will rise tomorrow. They allready know that the milky way galaxy is at some point going to merge with our neighboring galaxy, at this union we will be ripped to shreds in the oncomming forces. Ofcourse this will be a long time comming but it still isnt garaunteed.

 

[jonman122]

With what we know about the cosmos it isnt garaunteed that it will rise tomorrow. They allready know that the milky way galaxy is at some point going to merge with our neighboring galaxy, at this union we will be ripped to shreds in the oncomming forces. Ofcourse this will be a long time comming but it still isnt garaunteed.

as i said already, the sun does not actually rise. so i'm not sure why you'd bring in other galaxies when your still not using proper analogies to get your desired answer, eg. the sun rising vs. our galaxy coliding with another (the sunrise can only be observed from our standing viewpoint on earth, whereas galaxies colliding we really can't observe from earth at all)

 

[it's_sam]

Because from a perspective its proper. From perspective the sun rises and sets, your just trying to be clever.... funny. The perspective from out in space looking at two galaxies would be THAT perspective.

 

[jonman122]

Because from a perspective its proper. From perspective the sun rises and sets, your just trying to be clever.... funny. The perspective from out in space looking at two galaxies would be THAT perspective.

no because what you're trying to do is use 2 different perspectives and then comparing them and saying "see, the sun may not rise tomorrow." but really your 'perspective' doesn't matter at all because in reality, and with proof, we have deduced that the sunrise is only the perspective of the sun from earth, while in fact the sun does not rise but the earth rotates and the sun gives it heat and light depending on where the earth is in its axis of rotation. There really is only 1 reality, while there may be multiple perspectives. Aren't you trying to prove that you would need faith to know the sun would rise tomorrow, when really that is only based on the incorrect assumption that the sun actually rises, and really it is in a rather fixed placement compared to the earth?

 

[dmgdnooc]

it doesn't take faith to climb a tree, does it? unless your AFRAID of heights... which in this case wasn't mentioned
　


so who were the some that died?
　


why even mention death to those listening... because the second coming was to happen within their life time
　


nor do i want to...that is your business...not mine...you live according to your convictions and live a dignified life
what i am saying ismy experiences with the christian religion is that the only action of faith is judgement and control

how is your christian faith going to stand out without any action, whatever that may be?

i'm guessing the easy way and the self defeating way...words

'god' and 'faith' are just words

show what it means to follow jesus...that is what the lunatic, revolutionary jesus asked for...so for you, whatever it is, keep doing it...



the right to gay marriage...for instance

It doesn't take faith to climb a tree; or to be liberal with money either.
　
The verse, if you will read it, says some will NOT die. Particulary those 3 apostles.
　
The verse does not refer to the 2nd coming. That assertion is your straw man.
　
Faith is seen in the works of the faithful, by the love that the members of the community have one for another.
From a half a world away you cannot see my works.
You might not be able to see them from down the end of the street on which I live, that does not mean that they do not exist.
The assumption that they are non-existent or must be seen by you to be valid is, frankly, off the normal scale of ridiculous.
　
My works are unknowable to you, my words, just so much hot air.
I'm surprised you continue the conversation.
　
Words are not just words.
Each one holds the kernel of at least one idea.
It is the ideas at the base of the words that shape our thoughts.
Those thoughts direct our actions.
We are cerebral creatures, everything happens in our heads, even you can't escape that aspect of our shared human nature.
　
I have no objection to gay marriage as a civil union, or in any Church that recognises it.
More than that, I am in favour of formal unions, marriages, based on love.
　

 

[it's_sam]

No your right I should of said beforehand "from the point of view of you standing on earth and watching it go around the curvature of the earth" because people dont understand that when I say the "the sun set" wich shows in its discription a point of view "perspective".

 

[jonman122]

No your right I should of said beforehand "from the point of view of you standing on earth and watching it go around the curvature of the earth" because people dont understand that when I say the "the sun set" wich shows in its discription a point of view "perspective".

but then if your using this perspective how can you even bring galaxies colliding in to your equation? you can't see that from your perspective on earth, and changing your perspectives like that defeats the purpose of your argument.

 

[it's_sam]

Are you just not able to switch perspective from standing on the earth watching the sunset to standing in space watching two galaxies collide?

 

[it's_sam]

Its the perspective as comming from me... wherever that is.

 

[Thief]

Can you see the sun rise from the Garden?

 

[jonman122]

Can you see the sun rise from the Garden?

have you ever been to the garden to see the sun rise?

 

[dmgdnooc]

ROFL.
Nice try Thief.

 

[Thief]

How about having eyes that fail to see?
How about ears that fail to hear?

How about going back to topic?

 

[waitasec]

Quantifying faith doesn't affect the example - and the example you give is the one I gave.


Proof happens here, now; so requiring this "proof" is requiring tomorrow's sun to rise today, here, now.

(Hence, you'll never have "proof", because tomorrow's sun will always be tomorrow.)

so are you waiting for tomorrow?

 

[waitasec]

HAHA no im sorry a closed mind is what you seek to purge in religious people. Because what kind of fight would they put up? Your "impending" views would win over their knowledge simply because4 you found a way to make it so. Does this make you right in your assumption? Its as possible jesus didnt exist as he did exist, but you hold fast to the later rather then "keep an open mind". So yes it is my out claus because EVERYTHING is open if your willing to take the steps.

no i believe a lunatic revolutionary person by the name of jesus existed
it's his claim to be god i find rather absurd....