The fall of man; Free will

[dmgdnooc]

　
why mention death? was death a matter of urgency for some of those 3?
he mentioned death because he was going to die

how about in Mark 9:1 There are some of YOU standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of god has come in power -JC

not how your jesus saw it...it is easy to love those that believe as you do in your community
it is hard to love those that are a challenge...

at the end of the day you have to be truthful to yourself.
if you are a person to profess faith than all i am saying is, what is the proof of faith other than words....judgement, control which goes against faith in the first place (i am not saying YOU my experience with the christians i come in contact on a personal level) and what i see all around ME when it comes to their hypocrisy. judgement and control.. .that is undeniable, especially in regards to the christian right

just live according to your convictions....your faith.
　
nothing will stand out with only words....if my mom told me she loved me
and that's all she ever said as far as SHOWING ME she loves me...she can say until she is blue in the face will i believe she loves me by her words ONLY....i think NOT.
　
marriage comes with a history of subjugation towards women anyway...another topic perhaps...what are you insinuating with "based on love" isn't that what our current view of marriage/civil unions are about?

the christian right would be upset with those views, agreed?

Those 3 who saw the kingdom come (at the transfiguration) did not die b4 seeing it.
The others there did not see the kingdom come, they were not on the mount, they died and await their first sight of the kingdom at the resurrection.
At that time, to see the kingdom come, one had to be on the mount with Jesus.
　
Mark 9 includes the idea of coming 'in power'
2 Peter also mentions the honour and 'power' of the coming that he witnessed.
Peter's epistle contains both of the ideas that are separated in the Gospels.
　
Fact is it is a challenge to love just about anyone that you must (emphasis on must) love.
It is easy to love only those that you choose to love.
And you have not met those in my community, some are not very lovable personalities; abrasive, opinionated, loud, aggressive, manipulative; again you have no idea.
　
You have my empathy and support if you take exception with the hypocrisy of Christianity, that blesses soldiers b4 a battle (over money or prestige or will to dominate etc) that works to laden all people with the rigours of their personal convictions, that honors the rich and despises the poor, that invests in corporations whose profit is from strip mining, deforestation, the oppression of virtual slave labourers, that hordes wealth while humans starve.
Add to the list, you will find I'm with you on that, not just one mile but 2 or 3 or more. Maybe you will find that I've been on that road for a while, you may even have some catch-up to do.
　
To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not be false to any man. Hamlet.
The Bard understood a great deal about the human condition.
　
I do not know your situation.
My mother was the best of women, through all the griefs of her life not once did I have cause to doubt her love. Not even for an instant; not even when I was the cause of her grief.
My father is a different story though, a kettle of putrid fish, for the most part. However, recently, the past few years, we have worked out an arrangement of sorts.
The trouble is that scars take so long to heal, and scar tissue remains insensitive, dulled by the trauma. This is particularly so with scars on the psyche.
　
I insinuate nothing more than that if 2 people love each other, and have a strong desire for a sexual union, then marriage is the best solution.
IMO, the best part of a loving relationship is the living in one anothers company, sharing life together.
　
You may begin to perceive that the Christian right would probably have more of a problem with a person like me than with you. I'm one of them afterall.
IMO, truth is, lets face it, they (in the aggregate) are not governed by the scripture.
They are politicians who do what they do because they can.
So yes, agreed.
　

 

[waitasec]

Those 3 who saw the kingdom come (at the transfiguration) did not die b4 seeing it.
The others there did not see the kingdom come, they were not on the mount, they died and await their first sight of the kingdom at the resurrection.
At that time, to see the kingdom come, one had to be on the mount with Jesus.
　
Mark 9 includes the idea of coming 'in power'
2 Peter also mentions the honour and 'power' of the coming that he witnessed.
Peter's epistle contains both of the ideas that are separated in the Gospels.
　
Fact is it is a challenge to love just about anyone that you must (emphasis on must) love.
It is easy to love only those that you choose to love.
And you have not met those in my community, some are not very lovable personalities; abrasive, opinionated, loud, aggressive, manipulative; again you have no idea.
　
You have my empathy and support if you take exception with the hypocrisy of Christianity, that blesses soldiers b4 a battle (over money or prestige or will to dominate etc) that works to laden all people with the rigours of their personal convictions, that honors the rich and despises the poor, that invests in corporations whose profit is from strip mining, deforestation, the oppression of virtual slave labourers, that hordes wealth while humans starve.
Add to the list, you will find I'm with you on that, not just one mile but 2 or 3 or more. Maybe you will find that I've been on that road for a while, you may even have some catch-up to do.
　
To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not be false to any man. Hamlet.
The Bard understood a great deal about the human condition.
　
I do not know your situation.
My mother was the best of women, through all the griefs of her life not once did I have cause to doubt her love. Not even for an instant; not even when I was the cause of her grief.
My father is a different story though, a kettle of putrid fish, for the most part. However, recently, the past few years, we have worked out an arrangement of sorts.
The trouble is that scars take so long to heal, and scar tissue remains insensitive, dulled by the trauma. This is particularly so with scars on the psyche.
　
I insuate nothing more than that if 2 people love each other, and have a strong desire for a sexual union, then marriage is the best solution.
IMO, the best part of a loving relationship is the living in one anothers company, sharing life together.
　
You may begin to perceive that the Christian right would probably have more of a problem with a person like me than with you. I'm one of them afterall.
IMO, truth is, lets face it, they (in the aggregate) are not governed by the scripture.
They are politicians who do what they do because they can.
So yes, agreed.
　

read this again, i added more scriptures to back up my argument;
and look it up for yourself

paul and peter were JC contemporary and the letters to corinthians/thesalonians/peters epistles were written BEFORE the gospels OF MATTHEW MARK LUKE AND JOHN so of course THEY SAY the end has already arrived
1 cor 10:11 "These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
1 PETER 4:7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

was paul AND peter writing to you and me? NO they were writing to the church in corinth and to peters followers

1 cor 7:31 the form of this world is passing away

1 Thesalonians 4:13-16

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

peter and paul believed they were going to witness the 2nd coming


if our heavenly bodies (souls) are to join JC in the air, why was JC body missing? wouldn't it be his soul that ascended...?
1 cor 15:50 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom ....58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

was paul talking to the future or to his followers? and why doesn't he mention 'sisters" in the lord... another implication that paul was sexist and did not acknowledge women...i digress

 

[Thief]

And let's not overlook...
'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
'The kingdom is within you.'
'My kingdom is not of this world.'
'Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.'

 

[waitasec]

What is sad is that so many have no belief in Him, yet spend as much time as possible trying to sway those of us that do. Not only will we receive judgement for what we do and say, but those of us that turn people away from God, I believe they will answer for that. And for those that say how evil He is, I cringe when I read that. I can't believe people say such horrible things. Those that say the most hateful things, well if you read their posts, there is so much negativity in everything they say about God or Jesus plus just the negativity that comes from them. To say such horrible things, that says something about who you are. If I weren't firmly grounded in my belief in God, I would definitely NOT want to be like them. Such animosity. Such underlying viciousness. Who would CHOOSE to be that way? Not me.

The thing that puzzles me the most is the people that spend so much time and study to disprove someones beliefs. Why do it, unless you feel God has wronged you. I'm not comparing the Father to leprechauns, but those kind of people must enjoy making little kids cry over their angelic beliefs in mystical beings. Thank You God for loving me when I didn't love myself. Thank You God for loving others when people cannot. Thank You Jesus for loving me so much that You chose to give Yourself for me.

Another thing, for us Christians - if we cannot FIRMLY stand up for our beliefs during times like these, HOW will we stand when we are truly persecuted for them?

i don't think your god has wronged me
i believe the christian right has wronged humanity in general
with slavery, segregation, anti bi-racial marriages, sexism and heterosexism

all i'm asking is, were is your faith in the midst of these judgment’s and hunger for control over peoples private business...who appointed the christian right as mediator between our freedom of will and the laws of the god in your bible....
i believe we are all equal...you have your right to believe what you want to and so do i, the reason forums like these exist in the 1st place, is because the christian right/religious extremism infringe on our freedoms...

 

[Thief]

i don't think your god has wronged me
i believe the christian right has wronged humanity in general
with slavery, segregation, anti bi-racial marriages, sexism and heterosexism

all i'm asking is, were is your faith in the midst of these judgment’s and hunger for control over peoples private business...who appointed the christian right as mediator between our freedom of will and the laws of the god in your bible....
i believe we are all equal...you have your right to believe what you want to and so do i, the reason forums like these exist in the 1st place, is because the christian right/religious extremism infringe on our freedoms...

Naw....you're just trying to be extreme.

 

[waitasec]

if paul is indeed speaking to everyone in his present and in ours
why pick certain scriptures that pertain to belief rather than ones that pertain to action?
for instance; about the way paul addresses women:

1 Corinthians 11
1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
Propriety in Worship
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 EVERY MAN WHO PRAYS OR PROPHESIES WITH HIS HEAD COVERED DISHONORS HIS HEAD. 5 AND EVERY WOMAN WHO PRAYS OR PROPHESIES WITH HER HEAD UNCOVERED DISHONORS HER HEAD—IT IS JUST AS THOUGH HER HEAD WERE SHAVED. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A MAN OUGHT NOT TO COVER HIS HEAD, SINCE HE IS THE IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; BUT THE WOMAN IS THE GLORY OF MAN. 8 FOR MAN DID NOT COME FROM WOMAN, BUT WOMAN FROM MAN; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES: IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO PRAY TO GOD WITH HER HEAD UNCOVERED? 14 DOES NOT THE VERY NATURE OF THINGS TEACH YOU THAT IF A MAN HAS LONG HAIR, IT IS A DISGRACE TO HIM, 15 BUT THAT IF A WOMAN HAS LONG HAIR, IT IS HER GLORY? FOR LONG HAIR IS GIVEN TO HER AS A COVERING. 16 If anyone wants to be CONTENTIOUS about this, WE HAVE NO OTHER PRACTICE—NOR DO THE CHURCHES OF GOD.

if i am to understand paul correctly, "if anyone wants to be CONTENTIOUS about this, WE HAVE NO OTHER PRACTICE—NOR DO THE CHURCHES OF GOD." these rules are to apply for them then as well as for us now, why isn't it being applied today especially for the evangelical religious right?

 

[dmgdnooc]

read this again, i added more scriptures to back up my argument;
and look it up for yourself

paul and peter were JC contemporary and the letters to corinthians/thesalonians/peters epistles were written BEFORE the gospels OF MATTHEW MARK LUKE AND JOHN so of course THEY SAY the end has already arrived
1 cor 10:11 "These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
1 PETER 4:7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

was paul AND peter writing to you and me? NO they were writing to the church in corinth and to peters followers

1 cor 7:31 the form of this world is passing away

1 Thesalonians 4:13-16

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

peter and paul believed they were going to witness the 2nd coming


if our heavenly bodies (souls) are to join JC in the air, why was JC body missing? wouldn't it be his soul that ascended...?
1 cor 15:50 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom ....58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

was paul talking to the future or to his followers? and why doesn't he mention 'sisters" in the lord... another implication that paul was sexist and did not acknowledge women...i digress

I do not read that the verses you quote all refer to the 2nd coming.
　
1Cor 10.11 the fulfillment of the ages that had come is Christ risen
1Peter 4.7 the end of all things that is at hand is death
1 Cor 7.31 the form of this world that was passing away was the Temple services
1Thes 4.15 the coming of the Lord, is the 2nd coming
　
I do not accept that humans have a soul (as in a thing separate from the body).
Living, blood pumping, breathing bodies are souls. Gen 2.7 and others.
Jesus, bodily, was taken up into heaven, the resurrected body ascended. Acts 1.9
　
A mortal body is of flesh, bone and blood; its life is in the blood. Lev 17.14
A heavenly body is of flesh, bone and Spirit, as Jesus' after the resurrection, it has no blood; its life is in the Spirit. Luke 24.39
Flesh and blood cannot, therefore, inherit the kingdom. 1Cor 15.50
Those who do inherit the kingdom, and are alive at His coming, must therefore be changed. 1Cor 15.51
Their blood, I suppose, will be replaced by Spirit.
　
!st century Christians did expect the Kingdom to be established presently, within their lifetimes or shortly thereafter.
This is an attitude of mind that all Christians, regardless of the time in which they live, should cultivate.
Christianity is a matter of urgency, it is for now, today, not to be postponed.
　
The expectation is true in a very real sense.
Just one short moment after death, from the dead's pov, they will be resurrected.
It is the perception of the Christian that is important in understanding this concept.
One short moment after Peter died, from his pov, he will arise.
Because the dead 'know nothing' no time will pass from his pov.
Though the world may count 2000 years as passing, Peter will not perceive the passage of time at all.
　
Have you ever been under general anesthetic?
If so then you will understand that one minute you're there chatting with the Anesthetist, and the very same minute, from your pov, your waking up in recovery.
No time has passed from your pov.
Death and anesthesia share that quality.
　
Paul was a Hebrew man, he counted a Hebrew woman to be his brother. Deut 15.12
I do not find exception in his use of the word 'brother' as a generic term that also includes the idea of 'sister'.
I very much doubt that those to whom he wrote would take exception either.

 

[DarkSun]

I have a teenager. I give her space, freedom, privacy - all to an extent that a child should have. I tell her, when she's out with friends, don't do this or that. When she disobeys, she is punished. I love her so much, I hate to punish her but I want her to learn right and wrong and responsibility. God was, is, and forever will be. He knew what Adam was going to do before he was even created. Entrapment? Freewill. Learning process. Responsibility for our actions. Consequences. The beauty of it to me is this, God knew how terrible we were all gonna turn out, but He loves us so much, He made us anyway.

I guess every parent is guilty of entrapment, because we know our children are going to make bad decisions and mistakes - yet we allow them the space to make them so that they can learn.

Your analogy isn't completely sound...

If God is all-knowing, then He knew we would eat the forbidden fruit. If He did not intend for us to eat the fruit, then He is not all knowing. If He could not stop us from doing it, then He is not all-powerful. And if He could have stopped it but didn't, He is not all-loving. If you take the creation story as true, then God must have intended for us to be burdened with original sin. Otherwise, you're arguing that He had no idea what was going on and/or was powerless to stop it.

So if God intended us to be this way, why would God create a defective animal and then punish it for doing what it was designed to?

 

[dmgdnooc]

Your analogy isn't completely sound...

If God is all-knowing, then He knew we would eat the forbidden fruit. If He did not intend for us to eat the fruit, then He is not all knowing. If He could not stop us from doing it, then He is not all-powerful. And if He could have stopped it but didn't, He is not all-loving. If you take the creation story as true, then God must have intended for us to be burdened with original sin. Otherwise, you're arguing that He had no idea what was going on and/or was powerless to stop it.

So if God intended us to be this way, why would God create a defective animal and then punish it for doing what it was designed to?

God did intend for the fruit to be eaten.
The problem arose when Eve reached for, or grasped at, the fruit prematurely.
　
God could have stopped the eating of the fruit.
He chose not to in order that we might learn to live with the consequences of our decisions.
　
This does not indicate that He is not all-loving.
His desire is that we grow and learn from our mistakes, He doesn't kid himself that we won't make any.
　
Sin entered, not by the will of God, but as a consequence of Adam's action.
　
When a parent says to their child 'do not touch the stove or you will get scorched';
why is that you hear 'if you touch the stove I will scorch you'.?

 

[jml03]

Your analogy isn't completely sound...

If God is all-knowing, then He knew we would eat the forbidden fruit. If He did not intend for us to eat the fruit, then He is not all knowing. If He could not stop us from doing it, then He is not all-powerful. And if He could have stopped it but didn't, He is not all-loving. If you take the creation story as true, then God must have intended for us to be burdened with original sin. Otherwise, you're arguing that He had no idea what was going on and/or was powerless to stop it.

So if God intended us to be this way, why would God create a defective animal and then punish it for doing what it was designed to?

No, I am not arguing that God did not know we were going to fall. You must not have read my entire comment.

 

[it's_sam]

I think wether or not it was his fault or ours God did what he had to do to get it done and I wont hold that against him.

 

[waitasec]

　
This is not a dilemma for me, my understanding of Matt 16.28 is that it refers to the transfiguration which, ignoring the chapter break, follows immediately after.

mark 8:38 – mark 9:1
and matthew 16:24 – 17:3
are the same story... in mark jesus says who is ashamed of me i will be ashamed of him when HE (refering to himself, supposedly, in third person) comes in his (again in third person) fathers glory

in matthew he says something different, jesus says deny yourself and take up the cross and follow him and be rewarded according to their/your deeds...right...read it

mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in THIS ADULTEROUS AND SINFUL GENERATION, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he COMES in his Father's glory WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."9:1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who ARE STANDING HERE WILL not taste DEATH before THEY SEE the kingdom of God COME (from where) with power." The Transfiguration
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

So you say elijah and moses are the holy angels jesus said would come with the son of man
was jesus therefore ashamed of a certain disciple? Where the disciples the adulterous and sinful generation because they were all alone when witnessing this transfiguration?


Mattew16:24 Then Jesus said to HIS DISCIPLES, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life he will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27FOR THE SON OF MAN IS GOING TO COME IN HIS FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS, AND THEN HE WILL REWARD EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing HERE will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Matthew 7:1After SIX days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

So did jesus reward each disciple according to what they did? Had any one of those disciples died (some of you will not taste death means some of them will, right?) within those 6 days?

You are making up excuses for why jesus didn’t return in THEIR life time
Read the whole entire passage in your own bible, it’s right there in front of you.

 

[it's_sam]

mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in THIS ADULTEROUS AND SINFUL GENERATION, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he COMES in his Father's glory WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."9:1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who ARE STANDING HERE WILL not taste DEATH before THEY SEE the kingdom of God COME (from where) with power." The Transfiguration

Maybe his just meant some will die in their sleep and never taste what death can offer in its pressence. Or otherwords you will die in your right and in peace and you will see the kingdom of God before any darkness. Can you prove some of those people didnt die int heir sleep rather then be a martyr, or stoned to death for something they didnt understand? Death back then was perty nasty and I think would scare anyone, especialy how easy it could come runnin to ya. Besides all this whats the point your trying to make?

 

[waitasec]

I do not read that the verses you quote all refer to the 2nd coming.
　
1Cor 10.11 the fulfillment of the ages that had come is Christ risen
1Peter 4.7 the end of all things that is at hand is death
1 Cor 7.31 the form of this world that was passing away was the Temple services
1Thes 4.15 the coming of the Lord, is the 2nd coming
　

1Cor 10.11 the fulfillment of the ages that had come is Christ risen

1 Cor 10:6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep US from setting OUR hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."8 WE should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 WE should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for US, on whom the FULFILLMENT OF THE AGES HAS COME.

is he referring to you, or is he referring to the church in corinth?


1Peter 4.7 the END of ALL things IS NEAR
“that is at hand is death”
WOW, THAT IS A STRETCH

1 Cor 7.31 the form of this world that was passing away was the Temple services

7:29 What I mean, brothers, is that the TIME IS SHORT. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. FOR THIS WORLD IN ITS PRESENT FORM IS PASSING AWAY.

YOU TELL ME WHAT THE TEMPLE SERVICES HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THESE THING HE LISTED

boy you are really reaching...

1Thes 4.15 the coming of the Lord, is the 2nd coming

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE, WHO ARE LEFT TILL THE COMING OF THE LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

was he referring to you, or was he trying to comfort those who were confused because some have died waiting for his return?

at least READ the scripture before stating your argument:slap:
FAIL

 

[waitasec]

No, I am not arguing that God did not know we were going to fall. You must not have read my entire comment.

is god all knowing or not?

 

[it's_sam]

was he referring to you, or was he trying to comfort those who were confused because some have died waiting for his return?

Are you just trying to make it seem like we think jesus talks to us? I dont really understand. Also he was talking to anyone it applies to, much like everything if it helps... use it.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe his just meant some will die in their sleep and never taste what death can offer in its pressence. Or otherwords you will die in your right and in peace and you will see the kingdom of God before any darkness. Can you prove some of those people didnt die int heir sleep rather then be a martyr, or stoned to death for something they didnt understand? Death back then was perty nasty and I think would scare anyone, especialy how easy it could come runnin to ya. Besides all this whats the point your trying to make?

in THIS GENERATION....
is jesus referrig to our generation?

are you serious? please tell me you are joking sam....:sad:
dying in your sleep has nothing to do with this passage

it is a fact jesus did not come within their life time...why make up excuses for that...paul believed he was going to experience the 2nd coming

that is undeniable.....
it astounds me that people WANT to believe this

ignorance is one thing BUT choosing to be ignorant is another thing all together

 

[waitasec]

Are you just trying to make it seem like we think jesus talks to us? I dont really understand. Also he was talking to anyone it applies to, much like everything if it helps... use it.

READ the passage, who was it intended for....? these are LETTERS written to the church in corinth... do you really think he was writing to future generations?

 

[waitasec]

Are you just trying to make it seem like we think jesus talks to us? I dont really understand. Also he was talking to anyone it applies to, much like everything if it helps... use it.

jesus was talking to the people that were listening...to him at that point in time....paul thought he would see the 2nd coming

 

[it's_sam]

READ the passage, who was it intended for....? these are LETTERS written to the church in corinth... do you really think he was writing to future generations?

No your right its WAYY to old, and you know what so is eating. What were those ancients thinking eating food? Obviousely you cant take something old and apply it to recent terms "or atleast not willing to". Like i said IF OK "IF" it helps... use it. If you think it doesnt apply to you why would we or anyone else use it? Honestly? Now seriousely whats your point? you just want to find contridictions in the Bible? Sure their everywhere. Can we use NO words from jesus because it was 2000 years ago? Like being nice to people will bring the same back doesnt still apply? What and who are you arguing? You seem to have no direction in this thought other then you "think" you have some point to prove.