The fallacy of Jesus dying for our sins (By Shabir Ally)

[Britedream]

Britedream.. If you believe the Quran is perfect, and you've actually tested it's claims to your satisfaction- I don't have any problem with you, if you keep peace. I don't see perfection in any book, but you have found perfection in your Quran.. God's will is done.

Fair enough Sleeppy, have good day!!.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The word "created" is interchangeable with "prepared". God was already in existence; that's your first clue. Verse 2 states, "the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,".. The Earth can't exist, and "the waters" can't exist, if space, the cosmos did not exist. Verse 1 is the introduction to the preparation of Heaven and Earth, detailed in the following verses. There's no indication whatsoever that God created from nothing; He had a blueprint, and He had power.

Created is not interchangeable with prepared. Using wordplay or semantics to validate an idea is like changing the definition of kill in a courtroom. It only serves YOUR benefit not prove the actuality of an event of proposed event.
At one point Genesis was literal and now it is not.

What Genesis actually means is that the earth was created by a symbolic god, this god was actually a Xucunthon, one of the mighty ancestors of the Lebohi alien empire. The word god is a synonymous word for a powerful entity and in specific a Lebohi alien creator.

See where I am going with this?

 

[Sleeppy]

Created is not interchangeable with prepared. Using wordplay or semantics to validate an idea is like changing the definition of kill in a courtroom. It only serves YOUR benefit not prove the actuality of an event of proposed event.
At one point Genesis was literal and now it is not.

What Genesis actually means is that the earth was created by a symbolic god, this god was actually a Xucunthon, one of the mighty ancestors of the Lebohi alien empire. The word god is a synonymous word for a powerful entity and in specific a Lebohi alien creator.

See where I am going with this?

Actually they are interchangeable. Adam and Eve were created, from the dirt. It's also accurate to say they were prepared. Strong's Hebrew: 1254. ?????? (bara') -- choose

 

[Sha'irullah]

Actually they are interchangeable. Adam and Eve were created, from the dirt. It's also accurate to say they were prepared. Strong's Hebrew: 1254. ?????? (bara') -- choose

Logical fallacy: Avoiding the issue.

Adam and Eve are not relevant to cosmology. The cosmos and matter was already created at that point.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Actually they are interchangeable. Adam and Eve were created, from the dirt. It's also accurate to say they were prepared. Strong's Hebrew: 1254. ?????? (bara') -- choose

Logical fallacy: Equivocation.

Prepare:
Latin-prae
Definition: before/prior

Create:
Latin: creat
Definition: produce

There is an odd implication to the word by the way. It is colloquially used to refer to creation out of nothing.
Online Etymology Dictionary

 

[vskipper]

Still dont see how its relevant to the topic but I will play along. So far prepared is the best word used here. As Adam (interesting note: Adam is also Hebrew for mankind) was made from dirt. The word used here (as I understand it) signifies that it was a relational forming. Man was to be connected to the dirt BUT only phsically as man was not living until God gave him the spirit. Ie still made (not created) from something else

 

[ametist]

i didnt like this shabir guy's attitude. i dont like people who try to mock other people's faith. this isnt the right way to explain yourself. total fail.may god help him get himself together soon.

 

[Sleeppy]

Logical fallacy: Equivocation.

Prepare:
Latin-prae
Definition: before/prior

Create:
Latin: creat
Definition: produce

There is an odd implication to the word by the way. It is colloquially used to refer to creation out of nothing.
Online Etymology Dictionary

Genesis wasn't written in Latin.. .

 

[Sleeppy]

Logical fallacy: Avoiding the issue.

Adam and Eve are not relevant to cosmology. The cosmos and matter was already created at that point.

Avoiding the issue? You're not being very observant. If you look at the link I provided, the Hebrew word translated as "create" is used to describe the preparation of Adam and Eve from the dirt.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Genesis wasn't written in Latin.. .

I am referring to your assertion of the words not the Bible. You know very well who I am addressing

 

[Sha'irullah]

Avoiding the issue? You're not being very observant. If you look at the link I provided, the Hebrew word translated as "create" is used to describe the preparation of Adam and Eve from the dirt.

You did not give a single link explaining such a thing

 

[Sleeppy]

You did not give a single link explaining such a thing

It was the only link I gave. Strong's Hebrew: 1254. ?????? (bara') -- choose

 

[Sha'irullah]

It was the only link I gave. Strong's Hebrew: 1254. ?????? (bara') -- choose

I did not see this. I looked back and found it earlier. This does not change anything though as it is still an equivocation fallacy and just playing with semantics. The word means beget or create depending on it's placement. This alone does not imply something was created from nothing.

 

[vskipper]

Jesus died to fulfill the scriptures and spread the Word of God. No where in the gospels does He say He died to forgive sins. If you ask God your sins are forgiven.

Luke 22:19

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Jesus died to fulfill the scriptures and spread the Word of God. No where in the gospels does He say He died to forgive sins. If you ask God your sins are forgiven.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29

8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation. - Romans 5:8-11

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. - Hebrews 9:22


10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:10

21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 - Colossians 1:21-22

18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. - ! Peter 1:18-19

25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification. - Romans 4:25

 

[Sleeppy]

I did not see this. I looked back and found it earlier. This does not change anything though as it is still an equivocation fallacy and just playing with semantics. The word means beget or create depending on it's placement. This alone does not imply something was created from nothing.

It proves that the Latin origin of the word 'create', whether it implies ex nihilo or not, is the actual fallacy here. The same word is used to describe events where ex nihilo is obviously not the case (Adam and Eve, for example). You ignored my other points. In Jewish and Christian theology, God acts according to His will, and utilizes His power to do things. These are the basic tools that were used for creation. Ex nihilo is not found; God Himself was the 'something' used.

 

[Sha'irullah]

It proves that the Latin origin of the word 'create', whether it implies ex nihilo or not, is the actual fallacy here. The same word is used to describe events where ex nihilo is obviously not the case (Adam and Eve, for example). You ignored my other points. In Jewish and Christian theology, God acts according to His will, and utilizes His power to do things. These are the basic tools that were used for creation. Ex nihilo is not found; God Himself was the 'something' used.

This is what I was getting at to earlier. You are implying pantheism or a form of panentheism and this is not found anywhere in the Bible. You are just reconciling it using outside sources

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Even Christians who believe the Bible to be factual would disagree with you there. They don't believe the author was an eyewitness, but rather that he based his Gospel on the testimony of eyewitnesses.
http://bible.org/seriespage/eyewitness-testimony-luke’s-gospel

I far as I can ascertain only the three Mary's Remained at the Cross as he was crucified.
It was also to Mary Magdalene that Jesus appeared at the tomb. And it was she who became the apostle to the apostles when she told them that he was risen indeed. It was also she who told them to go out and tell the good news.

Mary Magdalene was the premier eyewitness of these events.
Jesus later appeared to the other apostles. Except to Thomas who at first doubted his rising, until Jesus appeared to him also.

None of these events and witness tell us why Jesus was Crucified and rose again. Though it is clear that Jesus knew it would happen and told them so.

The beliefs surrounding these events and the reasons for them, were deduced from previous scripture and their understanding that Jesus was a Son of God.

No one at that time Believed in the Trinity or that Jesus was God, or even that he had died for our sins. These were all later beliefs. The concept of the virgin birth was not to appear to later still , along with as the concept of May being the mother of God.

These things, were certainly not taught or believed by those early Judo-Christian communities, as is clearly shown in the Didache, which was used to train new Christian recruits for the next two hundred years.

What they did believe was that they were approaching the "End of Times" which is clearly demonstrated in the Lords Prayer that they used.

Our Father,the one in heaven,
your name be made holy,
your kingdom come,
your will be born upon earth as in heaven,
give us this day our loaf that is coming,
and forgive us our debt at the final judgement
as we likewise now forgive our debtors.
and do not lead us into the trial of the last days
but deliver us from that evil
because yours is the power and glory forever.

I have attempted to interpret it with the notes from Aaron Milavec's Greek translation and commetary.So as to arrive at a meaningful modern version.
All the petitions would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events.

Our Heavenly Father,
may your name be holy throughout the world
and your kingdom established among us,
so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.

may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
and be forgiven at the final judgement,
as we have forgiven others.
but spare us on the day of trial
and from the evil of the last days.

because yours is the power and glory forever.

 

[Sleeppy]

This is what I was getting at to earlier. You are implying pantheism or a form of panentheism and this is not found anywhere in the Bible. You are just reconciling it using outside sources

I actually haven't used any outside sources.. The only outside sources were presented by you. There is no evidence of an ex nihilo creation. I did provide sufficient evidence from Genesis to suggest otherwise. The first few verses of John 1 further support this point.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I actually haven't used any outside sources.. The only outside sources were presented by you. There is no evidence of an ex nihilo creation. I did provide sufficient evidence from Genesis to suggest otherwise. The first few verses of John 1 further support this point.

By outside sources I mean trying to interpret the Bible while trying to make it abide by science(an outside source).
I am not a Christian hence I cannot use an outside source to interpret something as it is of no interest to interpret it.